MAY ALL THE GIFTS HIDDEN INSIDE YOU MAKE THEIR WAY INTO THE WORLD, AND MAY ALL YOUR DEEPEST DREAMS COME TRUE.
Sending each and every one of you LOVE... and wishes for a joyous, abundant, wondrous year full of peace, harmony, prosperity -- and AN END TO WAR!! God Bless You!
No, I have not joined a Halloween cult. This is a photo of Claudia Wells ("Back to the Future") and me at Chiller in New Jersey, Oct. 2005. The guy in costume is scaring us, which reminds me of our current political climate. Sorry for all the changing pictures; my web guy can't be reached and I want to post the new photos with friends!)
2005 wrap-up:
I have to admit I'm getting a little paranoid here, wondering if my e-mails are being monitored or I'm being spied upon simply because I don't agree with the corruption of this administration. What a terrifying thought: that the very freedoms our country was built on -- freedom of thought, religion and speech -- are being usurped. The blatant propaganda of the Fox network has contributed to this Orwellian climate of fear. And the news blackout on electronic voting fraud is also quite astounding.
This Christmas, I have to say that I spent hours in prayer for the mothers, children and spouses of soldiers who died in Iraq. I can't imagine spending the holidays without your only child -- and my heart goes out to all of you.
Here is a letter I got from a Marine Combat Vet in November:
Dear Lydia,
I heard you on the radio with Brad tonight. For what it's worth, Lydia, you have my strong and full support here in my little corner of the world in Oklahoma. I can barely stand the thought of our kids fighting bravely in a hostile land as a result of lies and self-serving motives of this Administration.
I'm a combat Marine veteran of Viet Nam (1969) and was awarded two Purple Hearts for combat wounds for which I am very proud. For sure, my military service makes me no more or a less a "patriot" (whatever that word means anymore) than any other American. But, I relate it to you to encourage you to maintain what you're doin g by speaking out and don't back up an inch! I know there are many veterans like myself who appreciate you and your courage. And I especially appreciate the fact that you pray (and that you keep your clothes on, too, by the way.......not that I'm a prude or anything, but...well, you know).
Don't let Coulter get you down. Who knows......maybe the Lord has plans for you in Ann's life. God knows she needs something. Stay strong and good luck on your show. I'll be watching.
John Conley
Dear Lydia, Your email took my breath. Yes, we live in a strange world, Lydia. And I admire those of you with such national exposure (by the very definition of your career) speaking out from your heart, untainted by political pressures.
There are so many things I would like to express to you about the soldier's heart, but I don't want to take very much of your time. If you do happen to find some time, please go to http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heart/view/special.html and hear from other soldiers and Marines. These are clips of interviews with four veterans and I believe you will find them interesting and informative. I relate more to Jim Dooley and Viet Nam, but then again, though we are of different generations and different wars.....in ways most important we are all the same. Pray, Lydia, that God guides my memories and my words. Love, John
After my article was published, a Brad Blog commenter named Freedom Fan, asked me: "In your conversations with God Lydia, has he revealed to you when your life began? At what moment do you think all genetic information is in place to create a human life? Does God consider it a sin to intentionally snuff out innocent human life?"
My response: "When I got sober on Sept. 11, 11 years ago -- I experienced a string of catastrophic miracles, spine-tingling evidence of what I now call God in my life. Around this time I found my beloved younger brother's dead body, bloated and purple with lividity -- and I began my spiritual search. It became clear to me that flesh does not contain life. Life is spirit. And yes, I am absolutely sure of the answers to these questions. But I don't want to impose my discoveries on you without some background, and this is not the place. I have written extensively on life, love, death, faith and spirit -- and my own hilariously embarrassing adventures in spiritual growth.
For me the key is in Christ’s words and the meaning behind his parables. We are eternal and spiritual. And God is love. Love is an actual force, the creative force of the universe, more powerful than hate. Where you put your thoughts, there your heart is. If we were all to focus only on the GOOD in each other -- and return love for hate -- (very difficult to do, hence Christ's famous saying that the "gate is narrow") -- but if we could do this, we would create heaven on earth. It's here, we just can't see it, but some can when they change their perspective. (When we are all able to do this, to change our hearts, that is when I believe the "Second Coming" will happen. That's what Christ meant when he said that only he was the way to the Father: it is LOVE! And it's an inside job.) And in this expression, as a reflection of God, we come into form to express God’s qualities through man, His most glorious creative idea. Our natural state is joyous and childlike. And we are all in fact capable of doing what Christ did, we are supposed to be doing the healings he did. We are all the sons of God, made in God’s image, which is spiritual. You cannot kill spirit. So putting so much emphasis on the fetus or body as “life” is wrong to me. Now dont' get the wrong idea: I am against all killing, and I don't believe in partial-birth abortions. But not everyone in America subscribes to the belief that fetal cells prior to 8 weeks have consciousness or soul; and since we can't legislate religion in a free country where separation of church and state is a tenet of the Constitution - we have an obligation here. I also don't think Jesus wanted us to worship him, his flesh, his body so much -- he wanted us to acknowledge the Christ-truth within ALL of us. It's similar to when Jesus said not to focus on the "letter of the law, but the spirit." Soul, consciousness never dies, cannot be killed, is at-one-with God (atonement.) Is killing pro-life? Wars cause more damage to the families left fatherless, motherless and without their loved ones. We are here in this embodiment to learn to love and accept ourselves and transfer that love and acceptance to each other. Life is spiritual and eternal.
I feel God can be proved through science -- because love is a powerful force, an energy, and it's molecular. Anyway, there is no solid matter. Christ meant what he said when he said we could move a mountain with our faith. The problem is, we just don't believe it. If we did, we'd be walking through that metaphorical Gate. But all our doubts arrest God's work through us. Perfect Love casts out Fear, remember? I have had absolute transformative miracles through this kind of prayer; anyone can. Anyone can heal, for we must put our thoughts on the true spiritual essence of life, not the body. Beneath what is visible is the invisible where true power lies. It's like the software or inner language of a computer, beneath the surface. A great movie to rent to begin to understand in layman's terms this field of infinite possibilities is "What The BLEEP Do We Know". Also click on Google and type in "The Message in the Water" -- and read about a famous Japanese scientist's experiment in how our thoughts create everything. Anyway, my own personal journey (and horrific crash and burn) is coming out in a book soon. I was forced to find these answers on a very personal level. I explain this better in the book, and with more humor. Getting too serious lately. Just saw SYRIANA and GOOD NIGHT and GOOD LUCK. Two excellent movies.
More wrap up from 2005: This is from a BRADBLOG commenter named "Big K", who posted numerous comments on my article, and kept attacking me as a member of "the abortion party." I am getting sick of this; I have never even connected being a liberal with abortion! It's the furthest thing from my mind. This right-wing evangelical cabal invented this as a political smear campaign. There are so many wonderful things about the Democrats, which I will post in my next blog -- and no Democrat likes or wants abortions. Like Jimmy Carter, I am NOT pro-abortion and resent this bizarre right-wing obsession. To me, "liberal" means freedom loving, open-hearted, compassionate toward the poor, saving the earth and pro-LIFE in the ways that REALLY matter: we hate senseless death in any form, especially seeing our young bright soldiers killed and maimed (15,000 without legs and arms now) in a needless, corrupt war! If this war was to get rid of an evil despot and to save the poor Iraqi lives, then why didn't we go to Rwanda where the genocide was actually visible on a constant basis? Okay, so it was to fight terrorism. But the terrorists weren't even there at the start of the war. At least not the ones we were pursuing. Finally Big K explained to me: " What many of us have been saying here Lydia is you are just as liable for the “hate speech” you supposedly despise. Likening us to Nazi’s is not going to get me to see any point you have. (I never likened anyone to a Nazi; I simply pointed out that Coulter's "joking" about killing liberals is the same exact "joking tone" Hitler used when he as dehumanizing the Jews in the early propaganda days.) Then Big K goes on to say this: In Mosaic law, you should stone homosexuals since this is an abomination of nature" does not sound very liberal to me." First of all, I can't believe Big K believes Christ would have stoned a homosexual! Is that what he is saying? He lost me there.
Then a Democrat named Autarkis chimed in: "I can't imagine Christ taking a look at a secular leader taking his largest lifetime contributions from an outfit like Enron, which was the case for President Bush until just a couple years ago, and think that this was what he had in mind. Christ might be troubled to learn that the disparity between rich and poor in this country is growing at a staggering rate with no end in sight, and that Christians, at least the Fundamentalist ones, seem to celebrate this as the bounty of God when they're on the receiving end. But that's Ceasar's business. Maybe Christ wouldn't have given it much thought at all. He probably would be astounded to find that someone capable of mocking a prisoner begging for her life, (as Bush did to Carla Faye Tucker) called Christ his favorite philosopher. And then that this fellow launched wars, if not in his name, at least because he thought God put him in the Presidency to do this? And God's vicar, The Pope, tried to talk him out of one of them?"
HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERYONE! I would buy everybody a drink (milk for Lydia, unspiked) but your all too far away :D
ReplyDeleteLydia: I do admit you and Worfeus have ignited a very tiny spark from within me, however, you would need the Hubble space telescope to see it. I cant place the words you write now with the person you describe you previously were - self-centered, selfish, drinker, idiot, etc....! What guts! I could never announce to the world such things and this is why I admire you and believe you to be real.
Also, writing books, blogs, e-mails, and taking care of a family, while under attack, must be a high powered bummer after awhile - something is driving you? Seen a video of Ann Coulter bashing Canada; shes funny:D
Will return to comment on your latest blog after research. Have to take offspring to first job interview.
Take care
Johnny moo moo
Slug :D
Hey Lydia -- you hit the nail on the head, or should I say somwhere else. But I would be careful, many cannot understand what you're saying and may take it the wrong way. But I admire you for saying it. Happy New Year!
ReplyDeleteHappy New Year, Lydia, to you and your family!! May the new year bring you much happiness and inspiration.
ReplyDeleteThe world needs more good people like you. The goodness in your heart is so evident. May you share that goodness with any and all who will accept it!
Take care. Be safe. I'll catch you again next year!
DrewL
I am honored that you singled me out in your article, though I think some of what I said was taken out of context. Honestly, I am interested in debate. And there were some great comments on BradBlog that made me think. I hope in some instances you were able to stand back and do the same.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing. My Mosaic Law comment seams to be more interesting to people now than it was when I originally wrote it. I was not even sure anyone read it, it got so little response. Jesus did forgive the woman and put off the crowd. What he did not do was say adultery was alright. It is still a sin, and we are to avoid such things. According to Mosaic Law, homosexual behavior is as well. Though we obviously should not be stoning anyone (and I never advocated that, just for the record) we cannot, by the Law, consider it anything buy sinful.
ReplyDeleteGlad to hear you don't want to stone homosexuals. But whoever said it was your business to point out sin? Doesn't it say that "let he who is without sin, throw the first stone?" Doesn't this mean it's not our business to judge or be self-righteous. It's God's business. If everyone just took care of their own side of the street, just worked on cleaning up their own morals and sins, we'd all be better off. Then we could lead by example.
ReplyDeleteWorfeus: You are a scholar of the bible yet you do not attend church or call yourself a Christian? May I ask why as I am curious about this And forgive me if I am prying.
ReplyDeleteAs for being gay, I really dont care what other people do as long as it does not inflict vindictive pain and suffering upon others.
Johnny moo moo
I agree with you Worfeus, there is a lot about religion that is really wrong. But some churches do a lot of missionary work and help the poor. I always found it strange that the Catholic church made you go through a priest to get to God, when you can access God directly. Also didn't Jesus say, "Call no man Father on this earth?" Why do they make you call the priests "Father"?
ReplyDeleteThe extreme religious right (check out AFA, they are really homophobic) really scares me. They think they are the "persecuted" Christians, but they've got it backward. It's the liberals (or people who are opposite of judgmental) who are true Christ-followers, according to Christ's actual teachings. They are the persecuted ones today.
A quote from a self-proclaimed Christian about Ann Coulter: "... she belongs to the Antichrist trinity or the Taliban sect of Christianity." Who would hate someone that much? Who indeed Lydia? Look in the mirror and see a leftist Ann peering back.
ReplyDeleteWorfeus : I am feeling a little tipsy right now and will get back to you. Dont want to say anything I may regret:D
ReplyDeleteJohnny moo moo
Worf,
ReplyDelete"As for my comments on how Christ dealt with sexual matters, that was directed towards Big K's comments. Personally I don't know how they treat homosexuals up there in Canada, but down here they're tying them to barbwire fences and beating them to death."
Can the hyperbole. There's whack jobs on BOTH sides. During the same period as the incident you describe two gay men sodomized and killed a young boy. Didn't hear about that on the mainstream media did you?
The Death of Jesse Dirkhising Ignored by the Media Not A Hate Crime
By Joseph Farah
WorldNetDaily.com
His parents thought he was working as a hair stylist on weekends. But when Prairie Grove, Ark., police responded to a 911 emergency call at 5 a.m. Sept. 26, they found 13-year-old Jesse Dirkhising on the floor, unconscious, near death, one of his wrists bound with duct tape. A half-hour later, he was pronounced dead at St. Mary's Hospital in Roger. A police investigation determined young Jesse was repeatedly raped over a period of hours, including with foreign objects. While enduring this ordeal, his ankles, knees and wrists were bound in duct tape and he was gagged and blindfolded. He was tied to a mattress. He may have been drugged, police say. A sedative called amitryptiline was found in the home of two men -- Joshua Brown, 22, and David Don Carpenter, 38 -- along with Jesse's body.
Glad you clarified that.
ReplyDeleteI don't remember reading anywhere that Matthew Shepards attackers were religeous.
I too am concerned with religeous intolerance. Christians are being persecuted relentlessly in this country by the government, the schools, the media and the ACLU.
It's amazing, if you bash Jews, Muslims or any other religeon it's hateful and you're a bigot, but Christians are fair game.
Eric -- I am not talking about real Christians, actual Christ followers. It's this new Christian-fascism that is so disturbing. When I say "I suspect Ann Coulter is a member of the Antichrist Trinity or the Taliban sect of Christianity" I'm using hyperbole to express truth: she wears a cross around her neck on television, yet talks about killing people and converting them to Christianity, and she has said it too many times in too many different ways for it to be a joke no matter that her tone appears to be "joking". She also calls for assassinating our last president rather than impeaching him, and to top it off, she has actually said that she thinks women are dumb and their right to vote should be revoked. Now if that's not extremist religious fundamentalism (similar to the Taliban)I don't know what is!! Christ was the Prince of Peace. He forbade killing or vengeance of any kind! I mean, Coulter calls herself a Christian but this is the most repellent, damaging thing to true Christians who are TRULY being persecuted. It is anti-Christian (antichrist). Her words are full of hate which is the opposite of love, is it not? Do you see any humility,admission of wrongs, or any love coming out of this person?
ReplyDeleteAnd the fact that FOX network and now Matt Lauer treats this person as a conservative scholar is unconscionable! NOwhere in Christ's teaching is there anything to be found regarding humans judging other humans. As far as protecting citizens against murderers, yes we must lock them up. But we must not kill, right? Why do these new Christians think it's okay to kill living human beings who have sinned and been forgiven by God in their hearts -- yet they are obsessed with the unborn? Isn't killing a man on death row equally bad? Are you refuting Christ's law that sinners who repent are to be forgiven? Didn't Moses kill a man -- and then God used him to bring the Ten Commandments? I'm just saying that if you are against killing the fetal cells before 8 weeks - you should also be against killing a prisoner on Death row who is capapble of being redeemed. That's what Christ did.
Christ only talks about loving your enemies and loving your neighbor as yourself. He talks about forgiveness and lightening others' burdens because it is a harsh enough world. Sin catches up to everyone. It is up to God to judge -- which comes from within. People start leading moral lives by following the peaceful example of true Christians -- people are turned off by militant Christians. Lost souls are converted by attraction not promotion. I have a friend who attended law school at Pat Robertson's Regent University -- and she had to leave because the students there used the "N" word and were actually hateful toward her because she was Catholic! (My husband is a recovering Catholic, by the way...) sorry this post was so long.
Here's one for you, Worfeus....
ReplyDeleteOn January 1st, eight days after the Holy Nativity of our Lord, we celebrate His Circumcision, one of the Feasts of the Lord, on which—in accordance with Hebrew tradition—He received the name "Jesus": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the Child, His name was called Jesus, which was so named of the Angel before He was conceived in the womb" (St. Luke 2:21).
Worfeus - I have read inbetween the lines and understand where your coming from regarding your independence :|
ReplyDeleteAlthough I do not own a bible and have not read one in a coons age, I do remember Jesus saying something to the effect that he liked people who practiced/prayed alone and tried not to be showoffs.
Im going to have to buy one used or score one from my next hotel visit ...lol Im just curious so dont think anything rash like maybe Im trying to be a follower or something. If the fish fry does exist, I know theres a special reserved spot for me. I wonder if Lydia would be holding the spatula?
Speaking of Lydia, whats she doing hanging around demon/devil like creatures in her blog picture - I thought she was a Christian? I woulda guessed she hung around angels lol...
Johnny moo moo
aethist
P.S. What is the deal with those funny hats? If they know they bug Jesus, how come they still wear them?
Lydia,
ReplyDeleteI believe you truly mean well, unlike many others who claim to share some of your views.
I can't speak for Ann (she does that rather well herself) but if you look beyond the satirical and attention getting bombs she does make you think. And although the left may not like her views, she IS a scholar.
(complete with law degree and all)
Although we didn't actually kill ALL their leaders, look what Christianity did for Japan post WWII. Sure, they incorporated a lot of their ancestor worship into it, but A country that was pretty much pagan is now one of our strongest allies. (matter of fact, MOST of our strongest allies are countries who butts we kicked somewhere down the line...)
As far as death row inmates go, until someone comes up with a device to read whats in their minds or hearts we have no way of actually knowing wether they've been redeemed or not. And if their crimes have been especially heinious I think they deserve to be sent on for a more "professional" judging.
On the other end of the spectrum you alluded to abortion. I think that's been debated ad naseum by others more intelligent than either you or I and I suppose it just comes down to faith. (I know what I believe)
That said, no one seems to address the secular side of it very often. A fetus is at the very least a potential human being. A woman SHOULD have the right to choose. She should have the right to choose to use contraceptives, she should have the right to say "no". A woman should have a right to control over her own body, but does this also mean the right to disect and flush down a sink someone else's body? I have also seen this debated under the pretext of "equal rights" yet all the rights seem to be on the side of the woman.
It takes TWO to tango so to speak but if the woman wants an abortion, and her partner wants the child he's just out of luck. And should he NOT want the child and she does, well then he's just going to have to pay child support for the next 18 years. How "equal" is that?
Hypocrisy abounds on both sides. I bring this up because I note that you in your column, and worfeus and some others want to dismiss the good we've done in Iraq by bringing up atrocities in other countries like Rwanda. Sadly to say but we can't afford to be everywhere. And had we invaded Rwanda, the left would STILL be demonizing our president. Our military is used to defend our national interests and if some good is done along the way so much the better. The left want to condemn Bush for killing 30 thousand "inocent" Iraqis but give a pass to Saddam who killed almost half a million. Good people can debate wether invading Iraq was right or wrong but we're there NOW, and for every interview you could post of a soldier who thinks we were wrong I could post two who think they're serving a noble purpose. The mainstream media like to print stories from reporters who sit in the green zone and relay heresay, but if you read those who actually have ventured out into Iraq, we ARE actually doing a lot of good there. You may not like FOX news but Greg Palkot did a recent special on Iraq that was quite enlightning.
Just had to add this,
ReplyDelete"NOwhere in Christ's teaching is there anything to be found regarding humans judging other humans. As far as protecting citizens against murderers, yes we must lock them up. But we must not kill, right?"
"by their fruits ye shall know them"
-sounds like we're being asked to judge here...
And perhaps worf can help us out with this one,
One of the ten commandments is "Thou shall not kill"
I have read that this is a mis-translation. There is a difference between "killing" and "murder" and the original text was more akin to "Thou shall not murder"
Did anyone see that Discovery episode hosted by Diane Sawyer about Pope Joan, a female Pope? Whoever is Catholic on this post (Big K?) what do you think of a female pope -- and why are so many men ands religeous people afraid of women? They used to forbid women to enter the church after childbirth and taught everyone that "women" were a defect of nature. Unbelievabe! No wonder so many priests were gay.
ReplyDeleteHi Lydia, I've been a fan of yours since I was a little kid, I really liked Too Close for Comfort and I remember you hosting New Year's Rocking Eve around 1980 or so, thats why I checked out your Website to see what you've been up to.
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is WOW am I impressed, you are so intelligent and insightful, everything you say is right on the money, in these dangerous times we really need someone like you to open the publics eyes to what is really going on and expose these deceivers and hate mongers who are trying to seize power and destroy democracy, and take us to a place we dont want to go. you are also such a good and caring person and still absolutely gorgeous as well.
I have to say I was both angry and appalled, but not surprised at what Ann Coulter did by posting your phone# and e-mail, she knew exactly what she was doing, she wanted her "followers" to attack and intimidate you, she wanted you to be fearful for yourself and your family so you would just "go away" she sees you as a threat because you see through her deception and brainwashing of the masses and were trying to enlighten people. Coulture just like the Bush Administration never want to debate issues with people with open minds, thats why she did not respond to you, she just gave you that low blow cheapshot and made it appear that you are some ditzy airhead liberal actress princess that doesnt even deserve a response from her and will run away and hide her head in the sand then move on to some other cause as soon as you break a nail, she wanted you to doubt yourself and be fearful. which I hope doesnt happen because we need someone like you right now.
the last few years I also have gotten this sick feeling in my gut that in some ways the US now with The Religous Right/Neo Cons in charge is very similar to when the Nazi's were trying to seize power in Germany. I see the Deceivers and Hatemongers and Eliteists trying circumvent the constitution to take away more and more of our rights and liberties, seize or cement their power (ie Supreme Court, Patriot Act etc) not to mention how they deceive voters into thinking Liberals are a dirty work and Democrats are weak and all they want to do is raise taxes, they also seem to have stolen the south and midwest by not only appealing to religious conservatives but also rednecks and young votors by their tough and vulgar talk and their painting Democrats and liberals as weak or sissies that no real man would vote for. Also this notion that it is unpatriotic to question our leaders or this war I find both disgusting and disturbing. I think our imperial or is it imperious leaders seem to be forgeting that they are there to serve us, not the other way around.
Every time I see these people spewing their propaganda and deceiving the masses I get this sick feeling in my stomach that we are about to live through the Nazi's seizing power in Germany, or the Emperor seizing power in Star Wars, Lydia you seem very well versed in History, could you recommend any books on when Hitler and The Nazi's seized power in Germany, or what happened in Russia under Stalin (I know absolutely nothing about that.)
In closing I just want to say i'll think i'll be visiting your website alot more, as I have a great deal of respect for you, I hope you keep up what you are doing and dont let slime like Ann Coulter and her followers get you down, because you are too good a person for that.
PS, I know your probably really busy, but I really hope you respond to the similar e-mail I sent regarding the Blog
Happy New Year
Mike
Hello Lydia,
ReplyDeleteJust discovered your blog and it's fantastic! I really admire your courage to speak out about important social issues and stand your ground when you're being attacked.
It was also interesting that you quoted the number of people who have been injured in Iraq; so many people just think about the death toll and forget that sometimes serious injuries are worse than death because people have to live for decades with amputations or other diseases or disfigurements.
I'm not religious or spiritual, so I'm going to bow out of the Christian discussion :-) However, as a native of New Jersey who is currently residing in Canada, I will say that we are much more evolved here in terms of legislation.
For example, same-sex marriage is legal (and it's quite possible that marijuana and prostitution will be legalized within the near future). However, that doesn't mean that gays are treated equally. There's still a stigma but that would depend on where someone lives. Downtown Toronto would be much more accepting than a small town in Saskatchewan.
Anyway, keep up the great work, Lydia, and don't let anyone intimidate you into backing down or retracting your statements. What saddens me about the present political climate is that debate has become so personalized.
Debate and disagreement are healthy. I would think that it was really strange if everyone agreed with me! That would only happen in a Stepford World. We all benefit by disagreement, but only when it's done in a respectful fashion without ad hominem attacks.
Happy New Year to you, Lydia, and to the other posters here on the board.
Best, Sigrid
Einsatzgruppen - Russia - WW2- I believe it was Erich Koch who was walking around a large pit filled with dozens of little children. Suddenly engulfed in flames, the children screamed in unimaginable agony while reaching out for their little lives. Smiling, Koch casually threw candy at them ignoring their pleas. Death penalty...ABSOLUTELY. Hanging an innocent man due to the flawed justice system. ABSOLUTELY NOT.
ReplyDeleteI instantly recognized, while watching the video of her bashing Canada, that Ann Coulter is a controversial attention getter and do not take her seriously - kind of like a crazy Howard Stern whom, I do like, but do not always agree with. I actually thought she was kind of funny and may have even liked her had she not posted Lydias personal information; this was not funny and potentially dangerous. However, Lydia is very correct when she speaks of conditioning through comedic like tactics. Whether Ann is doing this I dont know as I have never met her personally. But I do place all my bets on Lydia.
I agree with Lydia and Worfeus that peace/diplomacy is by far the best soluton to war; WAR IS NEVER A PICNIC! However, Eric is correct as well. Sometimes war can bring people /countries closer together and can actually, in the long run, save lives. A type of chrysalis takes place that starts with calamity and then, slowly & evevtually, turns to
acceptance and friendship. On a small scale, Worfeus and Stevie are proof of this. Sadly ,a chrysalis may not be given the proper chance to run its full course.
Although there are many social factors to consider, I generally agree with "Jo" (I think that was her name) from Brad Blog. Beautiful, I could not have said it better myself.
Johnny moo moo
worf,
ReplyDeleteI believe this is what prophet was refering to:
http://www.chattablogs.com/aionioszoe/archives/cat_orthodox_feasts_and_fasts.html
Probably in regard to your posting of April 1 as Christs birthday.
(It's rather lengthy, but the first several paragraphs pretty much spell it out....)
Johnny,
ReplyDeleteAs I stated before, I think Lydia (and some others) mean well. In a utopian world these ideas would be fantastic.
However we don't live in a utopian world. Here, if someone smites you on your cheek and you turn the other one as well your family will be planning your funeral tomorrow. Its fine to believe in Jesus and love, but evil also exists in the world. Not everyone can be rehabilitated or retrained, sometimes evil is simply their nature.
Peace and diplomacy work fine with reasonable people, but sometimes peace and diplomacy allows evil time to grow stronger and harder to depose. Chamberlain tried that with Hitler and led the brits into a slaughter that sucked in most of the rest of the world. Until the rest of the world is ready to turn their other cheeks we cannot.
I don't know if many people know this, but during the cold war the USSR wasn't the only country we had our nukes trained on. We were set to take out most of our enemies as well.
The reason is pretty simple. After an all out nuclear confrontation we would be ill prepared or equipped to defend ourselves from the other vultures who would likely descend on us in our weakened state afterwards.
Just food for thought.
Also, I have to admit I am quite an admirer of Patton. Who would want to live in a utopia anyway? Nothing to strive for, no new worlds to tame and conquer?
worfeus said...
ReplyDelete"...Try telling that to the Iraqi women picking up peices of their own children off the street."
Try telling THAT to Iraqi fathers wrongly jailed who had to watch their wives and daughters raped and sodomized in front of them. Tell it to the famillies of the victims uncovered in the mass graves. Tell it to the people who had to watch loved ones fed alive into meat grinders.
Sometimes the evil ones are the ones who simply stand by and do nothing.
As I said before, we can debate wether going in was right or wrong, but we're there NOW. It's a shame that humanitarian interests have to take a backseat to our national interests but we simply cannot be everywhere.
And worf, while I see you condemn this administration quite often, I've yet to see you critisize Saddam with the same vehemence.
worfeus said...
ReplyDelete"...Try telling that to the Iraqi women picking up peices of their own children off the street."
Try telling THAT to Iraqi fathers wrongly jailed who had to watch their wives and daughters raped and sodomized in front of them. Tell it to the famillies of the victims uncovered in the mass graves. Tell it to the people who had to watch loved ones fed alive into meat grinders.
Sometimes the evil ones are the ones who simply stand by and do nothing.
As I said before, we can debate wether going in was right or wrong, but we're there NOW. It's a shame that humanitarian interests have to take a backseat to our national interests but we simply cannot be everywhere.
And worf, while I see you condemn this administration quite often, I've yet to see you critisize Saddam with the same vehemence.
Sorry for the double.
ReplyDeleteWorf,
ReplyDeleteYou seem to hold our military in such high regard. As I recall it was only a few involved in that particular incident and they were punished or are being punished for it. In any large group you always get a few who are unbalanced. Your side has more than its share. And again comparing our administration and soldiers to Saddam is reprehensible.
As opposed to the cowardice of sitting on your hands and ignoring the drumbeat of war in the rest of the world? We did that once or twice. Remember the Cole? How about the World Trade Center?
ReplyDeleteI don't know about you but after turning 4 cheeks I'm out.
Hopefully President Bush will go after Iran soon to give you liberals something to really whine about.
ReplyDeleteMy only problem with Bush is that he didn't go far enough. My way, not one American soldier would have died. Israel would've had about 30 days to construct a big lead wall and the rest of the middle east would've been a big smoking crater. Then I'd go drill the oil out from under the smouldering dead flesh/ashes. If the Saudis didn't like it, I'd smoke them too.
ReplyDeleteNow run out and get a job swinging a hammer for about eight to ten hours a day, and you won't have the time to sit around and think about this stupid crap.
And if you don't think war is biblical, Try reading the bible.
I don't believe it IS bearing "false witness". Militant Islam is the enemy here not specifically Iraq. And they were involved even if indirectly.
ReplyDeleteAnd you STILL want to blame our country over and above the real criminals.
Eric: WOW!
ReplyDeleteEric said: " Peace and diplomacy work fine with reasonable people" etc...
I have always said, one cannot walk into a mental hospital and simply say: " Okay people, I want everyone to start being reasonable by tomorrow!"
And your absolutely right about Chamberlain as his good intentions are pretty much written down in history as being weak kneed and appeasing which may have actually somewhat contributed to the start of the war.
I agree with every single last word you have written except the Patton thing and feel I am actually looking in a mirror.
You also left room open for respect towards Lydia and Worfeus and their very noble intentions that I too admire.
Outstanding post! However, I suggest that one remembers a point of futility can be reached in war as well.
Johnny moo moo
Hey sissy boy, ever been in a street fight? Did you just hit em once and let em get back up to kick your ass. No............you knock them down, and keep stomping on them until you win. Iraq is just a larger scale way of taking care of a block bully.
ReplyDeleteIf we could go back in time and give them nuclear weapons, you'd soon find out.
If you don't like the way the US is doing things, You're welcome to pick ANY middle eastern country and move there. See how sorry you feel for them then.
If and when the economy of this country ever fails you'll be one of the ones who starves to death because you think skinning an animal is the same as unwrapping your big mac and fries.
Love Jim
Worf,
ReplyDeleteThere are documents uncovered that show that emissaries of Al queda and bin Laden had approached Saddam. Saddam was also financing suicide bombers in Israel. Saddam HAD weapons of mass destruction if he didn't have them now. He used them against his own people. He was trying to aquire them when we invaded. Even Joe Wilsons report belies his public statements. Do you want to wait until the terrorists have a nuke or get them before? The enemy is Extremist Islam.
Worfeus- There is a very powerful story behind the "war is never a picnic" quote that I still do not understand and probably never will. I can certainly understand how you would find this odd.
ReplyDeleteJohnny moo moo
Johnny,
ReplyDeleteThank you. I believe there are some out there with good intentions. That said there aren't many. (also, I think they are quite naive as well.) Most of the left are much more dictatorial than the right.
They preach love, and hate anyone who disagrees. They preach free speech and want to stifle the speech of those who disagree. They act as if they know whats best for the rest of us. I prefer free will.
As I suspected worfeus, you more and more prove yourself to be some 300 lb lesbian sitting on their couch in Frisco wondering who their newest little convert is with. Amazing how the internet can make even the most simple of beings look complex.
ReplyDeleteThe mosquito carries west nile virus. It's small and unassuming, but it kills many. It goes to show how insignificant little creatures can do much damage with the right weaponry. Much like you and the internet. I know the women in your life would disagree, but size doesn't really matter. A small bully with big guns can become a large threat in a hurry. Genocide or not. Best to eliminate the threat early and often.
Just for the record, I'm not a carpenter. I was just trying to pick a job for you that would be more complementary than the apptitude you've shown. Fry Cook. You know, "Would you like fries with that?"
And please have a heart. Stop stalking Wesley Crusher. He already has a boyfriend.
Worf,
ReplyDeleteYou personally may not stifle free speech, nor Lydia. My point was a majority of those on the left DO.
Jim also has a point. If you don't mind a personal story, My son recently came out of a movie theater and encountered some older school mates beating up a 15 year old. He broke up the fight and gave them a taste of their own medicine. I don't think thats criminal and I didn't demonize him for it. Likewise, I can't demonize this administration for bullying a bully like Sadam.
Well fags suck.
ReplyDeleteNot critisizing just a statment of fact. And Wesley Crusher more so.
In all the so called statements I've made, I've made at least one valid political point in each. What amazes me most is that you've chosen to ignore the political points that this web site claims to hold dear and make my petty insults the focus of your replies.
Whether or not my opinion is right or wrong, (and I am RIGHT) You seem to be more interested in arguing than anything else. I ran across this web site by chance. If my luck holds, I'll never see it again. I did enjoy it though. I've always enjoyed a good exchange of insults.
The problem is, It's all you have. If you elect Satan to be president in your next election, my life won't change one tittle. I'll bet yours won't either.
I could wonk forever, but I won't. The short and sweet of it is, Ya'll need a hobby.
Thanks for the laughs
Worf,
ReplyDeleteIt was an analogy. Just as people in this country are neighbors, so too other countries on this planet are neighbors. I think that the microcosm is pretty much equal to the macrocosm.
If it applies on a small scale, it probably does on a much larger one as well.
The Ann Coulter thing at UConn is only one such incident, there are MANY.
By the way, if you really want to know what we're up against check out Craig Winns site:
www.prophetofdoom.net
Also, of interest to you as a bible scholar you might check the link "Yada Yahweh" at the top.
Much like the mass media, you take snippits of what people say, and try to promote your own useless opinions Join CNN. It's not difficult to take sound bites or video bites and make someone else look like an asshole.
ReplyDeleteOf course you don't need that.
Sarcasm is the proof a weak mind.
ReplyDeleteI intentionally insulted you to sidetrack you from the point.
Seems you'd argue than debate.
I have no further use for you.
Jim: Out of respect for Lydia, we all try to check our language and keep the site clean.
ReplyDeleteJohnny moo moo
Last post came from Jim. Don't want anyone else blamed.
ReplyDeleteBTW Lydia, I like the funny picture of you with the demon and hope you understand I was only teasing you in my earlier post.
ReplyDeleteJohnny moo moo
I didn't quote anyone.
ReplyDeleteI have thoughts of my own
I don't need to regurgitate what other's say.
"I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't inquire too closely into the case of the tenth. The most vicious cowboy has more moral principle than the average Indian."
ReplyDelete-Theodore Roosevelt
Wow, a lot has happened in the last few days. And all the anti Catholic stuff. You guys are really trying to pick a fight with me, I see. Well, I am not taking the bait. On that issue I will only say this. The Catholic Church has withstood attacks for 2000 years. Not you, not any force on this earth with destroy her. If all you can do is to attack the good people there with the bad, it is your eternity. There have been grievous errors, no question, but if that is your sole reason for putting off the entire thing you may look to your own life and judge how much better you are to be teaching others anything. There are literally thousands of great religious people for every one that makes the news. But those priests feeding and clothing the poor, or living in squalor in some third world country trying to heal the sick are of no interest to you, because they do not give you any ammunition to attack them. I said it before, I will say it again. For one who calls themselves Christian to say another is not is wrong. Who are you to judge their faith?
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of homosexuals, the real debate as it began. I did not say I judged them, or their actions. And again, violence to them for the sake of religion is despicable. Christ did tell us to go forth and teach all nations. Instruction is not biased, and if you do not heed the warning, you can take it up with God at the end of days. I will have my own sins to attend to, as we all will. Instruction is simply meant for the benefit of those being instructed, if you reject it, that is your business.
I do find it almost ironic that Lydia is writing a book about how to talk to people like me. She seams wholly unable to do it, so how can she write a book. I mentioned on BradBlog that she constantly ignored questions people had. She seamed less interested in talking with, than she did in talking at people who had a differing opinion.
Happy New Year, ladies and gentlemen. And God bless.
The last paragraph of my 3:59 PM post, I was talking about abortion.
ReplyDeleteJohnny moo moo
Big K -- I love and adore all my Catholic friends, and I can tell you are a really good person. Sometimes we go to Catholic Mass because we love the ritual and the beauty of the church. I also am fond of St. Agatha's Father Ken -- who is truly an inspirational priest. When I say my husband is a recovering Catholic, it means he has opened his eyes to a more liberating way of actually living as Christ himself taught: by putting God directly in his heart and healing. One doesn't have to go through a priest or a certain saint, just pray the Lord's prayer and turn your burdens over to God.
ReplyDeleteIf you and Ann Coulter are one and the same, then I guess my book is directed at you. I had no idea I was writing a book about you. You have no idea what this particular book contains. My personal book "Falling UP" is about my own spiritual growth, the Hollywood crash & burn and my experience in finding God --and in this book I discuss the prayer miracles I have experienced and the most direct route that anyone can take to access God's power in their lives. The past 11 years have been the most thrilling journey of my life and I want nothing more than to help others understand that they too can actually have this amazing gift. Remember Herbert Spencer's quote: "There is nothing that will keep a man in everlasting ignorance, so much as 'contempt PRIOR to investigation.'
Oh -- and I forgot the most important part of Christ's teachings. God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of love. Love casts out fear. Love your neighbor as yourself. Bless those who persecute you. Resist NOT evil. (Do not fight ANYTHING, it will only hit you back harder. Evil proliferates the more you give it power by fighting it.) My son tried this with a school bully; he simply didn't react to his cruelty and the guy stopped. A year later, now they are friends andgo to the same church!
ReplyDeleteWhy do the current right-wing Republicans make fun of Democrats for wanting to understand our enemy's motives? WE're not trying to do "therapy" or be soft -- we're trying to figure out where they're coming from so we can STOP FIGHTING.
But isn't fighting SEXY Lydia? Isn't that why you wrote "Death is Sexier than sex?"
ReplyDeleteIf we're not fighting we're not turned on. I guess we're not ready for heaven yet.
James W
Instead of asking Lydia that Question, you should be asking it of our leaders, because to The Religious Right/Neo Cons, death and power is certainly sexier than sex.
ReplyDeleteBtw if you had read what Lydia wrote with an open mind, it would have been obvious that she does not fell that Death is sexier than sex herself, she was merely trying to make a point.
Mike
Lydia and people like her are nothing but bigots hiding in California. Come to the heartland Lydia and see the real world.
ReplyDeleteI do hope that if the liverals succeed in limiting our war against terrorists, the terrorists show their thanks by striking against them first.
a Guy from Bush Country
How does speaking her mind make Lydia a Bigot?, And as for The "War On Terror" if this Administration REALLY cared about the war On Terror they would be focusing ALL Their efforts on Afghanistan and rooting out Al Queda and Terrorism, not entangling us in a useless war in Iraq that is their personsal agenda. They are using Terrorism as a means to justify their corrupt agenda and seize power. They even admit to going to war under "Misimformation" They cloak this war in a lot of honey tongued talk and good intentions such as removing a dictator or fighting terrorism, or intalling democracy however the war is really nothing more than a means to build up and secure a rich supply of oil with the side benefit of installing democracy and hopefully creating an ally in the Middle East so we have access to that oil. they are also using this propaganda as a means to alter the constitution and seize power. There were no ties between Iraq to Al Quada, just the lies spewed by Cheney and the Neo Cons to deceive people and make them think there was a link to justify the war. The Iraqis dont want us occupying their land, and we Good soldiers dying everyday because of this, in my oppinion I would feel safer if they were back home securing our borders or rooting out terrorism in Afghanistan like they should have been.
ReplyDeleteMike
BTW, if you dont like Lydia or the views of the majority of people on this site, then why are you here?, don't know about you, but I have a limited amout of leisure time and prefer spending it with people I like and respect and who have similar views on life, being open to others point of view and being willing to engage in intelligent and respectful debate with them is one thing but choosing to spend your time picking fights with and writing hateful message to people you obviously dont like or agree with is the sign of a hatefull person with not a lot of good things going on in their life.
ReplyDeleteMike
I like your reply also Worf.
ReplyDeleteMike
"How does speaking her mind make Lydia a Bigot?, "
ReplyDeleteHow does Ann Coulter speaking her mind make her "Stalin"?
Lord the invective never stops, does it?
I hope Lydia's book comes out the same time as Ann Coulter's next book to see which one hits the NY Times bestseller list first.
I believe anyone who writes ".. how certain fundamentalists can call themselves Christian..." or that Ann Coulter is a part of the anti-Christ is a hater and a bigot.
ReplyDeleteWow I didn't mean to get all of you liberals upset - I am real suprised that you folks have a backbone.
Y'all have a good night and may God bless President Bush for keeping us safe!
Well I guess every sight has its troll trying to stir things up, so i'll repeat my last statement then wont dignify your hatemongering with another one
ReplyDeleteBTW, if you dont like Lydia or the views of the majority of people on this site, then why are you here?, don't know about you, but I have a limited amout of leisure time and prefer spending it with people I like and respect and who have similar views on life, being open to others point of view and being willing to engage in intelligent and respectful debate with them is one thing but choosing to spend your time picking fights with and writing hateful message to people you obviously dont like or agree with is the sign of a hatefull person with not a lot of good things going on in their life.
Mike
The personality of a Stalin and a Coulter: According to the checklist under "Profile of a Sociopath" -- both suffer from a disorder called "Sociopathic Narcissism". They both have ZERO empathy or compassion for others.
ReplyDeleteComparing someone's personality to Stalin does not in itself imply they are a mass murderer; simply that they are "dictatorial" and suffer from a lack of human empathy.
Lydia said:
ReplyDelete" Resist NOT evil.(Do not fight anything, it will only hit you back harder....etc
Lydia, this is very true, but, this philosophy's effectiveness only go's so far and is limited/governed by specific situations and the reasonable mentality of the individual who is evil. Your son simply had a reasonable bully (Thank God) - others are not so fortunate!
Once again - Everything MUST have balance and I am extremely vehement on this.
What if Abraham Lincoln did not resist? This thought chills me.
And, are you suggesting that the many millions of docile Russians who died from Stalins warped policies did the right thing by not resisting because Stalin might hit back harder?
Im sorry Lydia, but I would have snapped Koch's neck like a chicken and wiped out every officer there at that pit to save those burning children as I am absolutely convinced that giving these scum a hug, smile, and the peace sign, would not have prevented their horrible sufferings.
Even Dr. Wayne Dyer, whom you seem to admire, strongly recommends standing up to a bully for positive reasons. He clearly says people respect strength and we should not allow ourselves to become victims.
Chamberlain tried your way OVER and OVER again and failed miserably, simply allowing Hitler to become more powerful.
To say: "War is the answer to all of lifes problems" is lunacy and unbalanced.
However, to say: "A smile, a hug, and being resonable, defeats all evil each and every time" is also unbalanced.
" If you believe there is one right way to do everything, and that you must perform this manner in every situation, then you lack spontaneity and creativity. If you impose this one way standard on others, youll become a victim every time circumstances change ...."
Dr.Wayne W Dyer
I dislike war Lydia, but know there are no absolutes. Nevertheless, I am in agreement with Worfeus that a CIA backed rebellion was a very real possibility.
Johnny moo moo
aethist
war historian
Warfeces - I stand by my comment calling Lydia a bigot. You on the other hand, are the reason the Democratic party is in trouble. I
ReplyDeleteVictor Davis Hanson makes an excellent observation:
After September 11 national-security-minded Democratic politicians fell over each other, voting for all sorts of tough measures. They passed the Patriot Act, approved the war in Afghanistan, voted to authorize the removal of Saddam Hussein, and nodded when they were briefed about Guantanamo or wiretap intercepts of suspect phone calls to and from the Middle East.
After the anthrax scare, the arrests of dozens of terrorist cells, and a flurry of al Qaeda fatwas, most Americans thought another attack was imminent — and wanted their politicians to think the same. Today's sourpuss, Senator Harry Reid, once was smiling at a photo-op at the signing of the Patriot Act to record to his constituents that he was darn serious about terrorism. So we have forgotten that most of us after 9/11 would never have imagined that the United States would remain untouched for over four years after that awful cloud of ash settled over the crater at the World Trade Center.
Now the horror of 9/11 and the sight of the doomed diving into the street fade. Gone mostly are the flags on the cars, and the orange and red alerts. The Democrats and the Left, in their amnesia, and as beneficiaries of the very policies they suddenly abhor, now mention al Qaeda very little and Islamic fascism hardly at all.
To the left, the problem facing the United States is President George W. Bush; to the left, he is the enemy - the man bent on destroying us...and so what was once a War on Terrorism for the United States has now become the Republican's War on Terrorism while the left engages in its War on Bush. Not since the Copperheads during the Civil War has the United States faced such a defeatist and pro-enemy political opposition as we face today...even the anti-war protests of the Vietnam era pale in comparison to the aid and comfort being provided to the terrorists today. And the problem is that as long as President Bush advances from success to success, the stronger the opposition becomes - that is, it will be this way if we allow it to be so.
It is we, the average Joe's and Jane's of the center/right in the United States who must take a stand - it is up to us to ensure that when President Bush leads the charge, he doesn't find himself alone out there, being attacked from behind by the left. In the slang of the day, we have to have President Bush's back.
Are you ready for the battle?
I'm surprised more people havent said that, john Kerry should have been drilling that into people's heads during his campaign.
ReplyDeleteI am 100% Democrat and firmly against the current administration as well as the Religious Right/Neo Cons like Coulture, but I have to say the Dems waged a pitifully weak campaign, they didnt really point out that the war in Iraq has actually hurt the fight against terrorism for many reason's, primarily because we should have been using ALL OUR RESOURCES as Jesse Ventura said to fight the Terrorist in Afghanistan and also because the Iraqi's as well as the rest of the world dont want us there and that is stirring up hatred against the USA. The Democrats are really in disarray though and should have been pointing this out.
Right now though we need people like Lydia and Jesse Ventura, people who have the power to shine the into the dark place these people are trying to lead us to and expose their deception and manipulation before its too late.
Mike
Jesse Ventura is right. And Lydia and Worfeus you're both right: a CIA-backed, underground plot to get Sadaam would have been brilliant. This is the phoniest dirtiest war ever. These sleazeballs in the administration are the very definition of evil.
ReplyDeleteThis guy is a nut! Obviously a troll who never even read Lydia's blog at all. Calling her a bigot is insane. Maybe she's a bigot against HATRED -- which is Coulter's middle name. Has this guy ever read anything?
Question is - how do we turn all this damage around? America is not the nation people look to anymore.
I agree -- Jesse Ventura is looking good. Tough on real terror. Not a wimp like Bush, who is a puppet with a daddy complex. Why doesn't this bozo troll bring up KATRINA? Even some Republicans I know have turned against Bush after his reaction to Katrina. And I hear he appointed another insular evangelical Neo-con to another important post.
ReplyDeleteI voted for Kerry also, because Bush wasnt much of a choice, but I have to admit he ran a weak campaign against Bush.
ReplyDeleteAs for that anonymous guy, he's just a troll, maybe he'll go away if everyone ignores him. although in my opinion its pretty ridiculous to waste your time typing hateful messages to people you dont like or agree with. If you dont like Lydia, then why are you wasting your time on her site, and its obvious your not going to convince anyone here to like Bush, and no one here is going to convince you that he's evil so what is the point of you repeatedly typing hateful messages, is your life that boring that you dont have anything more positive to do, I would think you would prefer to associate with like minded people.
Mike
Very well said, great points
ReplyDeleteMike
BRAVO Worfeus! Now we need for THEM to read this. There is not one national TV show speaking like this. Can you think of any? How do we reach the people who are brainwashed by right-wing radio on 600+ channels across America?
ReplyDeleteNo Ms. Cornell, I am not Anne. On BradBlog I mentioned I was a male, long haired, 30 year old engineering student at Arizona State University. That is all the truth. Aside from the long hair, I have little in common with Anne. And she seams to hold some disdain for Catholics as many of the people here do. There is some proof that she and I do not see eye to eye on everything, in case you needed it.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Worfeus’ comments are concerned. Your Bible quotes are interesting, but prove little as far as the corruption of the Church. Upon some inspection of the Bible in whole you may find one interesting trait among all God’s chosen people, New Testament and Old. They were all weak. The Philistines were stronger people in faith and arms, but the Jews were chosen. The Jews fell from grace with God many times, but they were still the chosen people. When Christ came, He did not pick saints, he picked fishermen, a tax collector, a womanizer, among others. The stereotypes of fisherman have not changed much in the last 2000 years. At the marriage at Cana, they ran out of wine because 12 drunkards descended on the party and drank their stuff. They fought, they did not listen. It was not until after the death of Jesus did they really start to get it. Lydia has said it herself, Jesus brings sinners to Him, that is who He is interested in. That the Church has sinners in her midst is not proof that her teachings are wrong. But that she has lasted 2000 years despite those horrible people may be proof that God still works through His church.
One more thing, just because you keep bringing it up. The Inquisition saw many abuses of power. You know a little bit about it, I can see that. But did you know that the lay people of the time asked for the church to take action against the errors going on? People were tired of liars painting signs of stigmata on themselves and talking money out of innocent people. Or worse crimes. The Inquisition lasted 400 years (not 700) because many generations of people thought it necessary. Read books of the time and you will see the lay people had little fear of the officers doing this work. An example of this would be Miguel de Cervantes’ famous book “Don Quixote.” He lived during the time, mentions the Inquisition, but not in a way you might expect.
One more thing before I lay down for my beauty sleep (Lord knows I could use it).
ReplyDeleteIt has been bothering me that people think that the Catholic church does not allow an inward, personal spiritual journey. That is patently false. True, the priest must be present to administer Sacraments. But this does not exclude the need for God to be present in a person. That someone may do all the things right, but not have God in their hearts is an absolute fact, and one the church warns against repeatedly. It may be too late in the evening for me to articulate my thoughts well enough, forgive me that. But I can recommend a great book that describes what I am talking about perfectly. Saint Thomas a Kempis’ “The Imitation of Christ.” It is a classic of literature, and a good read. However, it is written, like many books of the same subject of the time, for people in a vocation. So, when he talks about limiting your friends, separating from the world, living in real, literal poverty he is talking about priests. (So much for those funny hats, huh?) But the rest about making sure you have God inside you, and really follow His example is amazing.
Ms. Cornell, I think you are a decent person as well. That is why I keep bugging you. That and you wrote a whole article on your web page and mentioned me so much. I could not believe that you read anything I wrote. And in my earlier post I did not mean to say that you have an obligation to respond to me. Who am I, but some weirdo on the internet? What I was meaning was that it seamed that a lot of peoples honest opinions and questions were looked over if they did not fit with your ideas. Maybe that was just my perception and not reality. But it is what I thought. And if you are writing a book about how to talk to conservatives, I just found it funny you should call it that, seeing it from that light. No offense was meant.
Good night ladies and gentlemen. My wife and my pillow are calling.
I agree - they completely go against most of Christ's teachings! I went to Catechism and they didn't want me to read the Bible directly. All my years going to chruch (I still do) -- in my heart I always knew there was something wrong here -- even though I never studied Catholic history like you did. If you read Jesus Christ's words they say not to worship idols or fancy hats or "fathers". It's weird. They keep people in chains believing in a "fear and punishment" God and then annoint themselves God as torturers. It is the sickest thing. They also put too much emphasis on the externals. But I like the Greek Orthodox church with the incense and fancy robes. It makes it feel more "religious".
ReplyDeleteWhen I mentioned the Inquisition, I was referring to the Spanish Inquisition, which by my records lasted from Sixtus IV decreeing his papal Bull in 1478 until it was finally ended on 15 July 1834. Actually, the last person executed under the Inquisition was said to be Cayetano Ripoli on 26 July, 1826. That the office of the Inquisition lasted longer than that, and in some capacity still does, proves nothing of your point.
ReplyDeleteWhen I mentioned that sinners in the midst of the church. I submit to you that it is not the policy of the church to breed such things, and that, again, since some impurities in the church have bubbled to the top means nothing. The church still stands, and will stand as the greatest force of charity in the world. More sick are medicated by the church than any other group. More money and food are given to the poor than any other group. More good is done in general. Again, it seams that those facts are overlooked for the few that are horrible. And so you can feel that I am not ignoring your point that the hierarchy of the church is corrupt and the tree that bears bad fruit is in need of cutting down I may remind you that all men have free will. Even priests. If a man decides to fall from grace and commit horrible atrocities God will not stop them. He will judge them on it, however.
As for the anonymous post, read your Bible. Please do. The church has maintained the whole truth in it is a mix of scripture and tradition. That is why they are trying to get you to read it with someone. It is not that you are going to find something there that contradicts your faith, but that you may need to have some things explained properly. My earlier post about Mosaic Law is a perfect example. Are we to do violence to sinners? No, but there are some passages that say that. you will find human sacrifice in the Old Testament as well, we are not to engage in that, and they were not either. If questions arise, as they invariably will, the church would like someone who went to college to answer them for you. (and in case anyone was unaware, yes, priests have to be educated men).
I am so happy that the wonderful people of Iraq are no longer living under a ruthless dictator like Sadaam. I have had the priviledge of meeting Iraqis in the past and it struck me how they seem so much like Americans. When I graduated high school 11 years ago I played soccer in a park with about 20 young men from Iraq. They were very warm and friendly. They shared with me what it was like living under Sadaam and what he had done to members of their family. Anyone who has a humanitarian spirit should be proud that our military has liberated millions of wonderful people and allowing them to live with freedoms that you and I take for granted everyday.
ReplyDeleteI don't claim to know whether Sadaam has ever had Weapons of Mass Destruction, however he blocked investigators from seeing what they wanted to see in Iraq. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi citizens and he would have always tried to increase his power through creating Weapons of Mass Destruction and willingly using them against the U.S. It may have taken him 10 years, but in a post 9/11 environment I am glad we don't have to worry about his devious motives. Here is a man who found great joy when the Twin Towers fell. I am glad he is not able to harbor terrorists, devise evil plots, or torture his own people.
On and off I still attend my local Catholic church and I remember one Sunday the priest asked people to give generously in the donation. Then he said: "Catholics, as a rule, give the LEAST money than any other Christian church in America. We must reverse this." I think it's because of the fear and confusing messages about "vows of poverty." Maybe people don't think they have a right to think of themselves as rich enough, so they stay in limitation. But if everyone tithed, imagine we wouldn't need taxes.
ReplyDeleteOh and also heard this about Mother Theresa, who has to be a saint by now. Once she was tending to AIDS patients and was told by the papal hierarchy that the Holy Father didn't approve of her tending to homosexuals in their sickness. And she answered, "But JESUS wants me to. I listen to the Holy Spirit and Jesus, our Lord."
ReplyDeleteThere are good priests though, and I loved Pope John Paul. He was clearly a true Christian, even though he went with the party line sometimes.
Hey -- who says "college-educated" priests are interpreting Christ's words correctly. It seems they misinterpreted them to me and covered them up with too much fancy dressing. It's sort of hard to see the simplicity in Christ's teachings with so many "punishments."
Worfeus,
ReplyDeleteSorry, I did read your post. The Bull you cite is correct, and the pope made such policy. What I meant was the history of the Inquisition has been skewed in ways that originally it did not intend, and there is literature of the time that supports my point. Obviously, as I have already stated, and the church has as well, errors were committed, and are no longer in effect. Errors will continue to be present, as we are all fallible humans. Errors exist in every human endeavor, every group, every religion, every country, even families have skeletons in their closets. To judge the church is to go against another post I read here, “he who is without sin” and so forth. I cannot stand idle while people are attacking the church I love so much. If you think this is tedious, then change the subject, but I will not stand idle in the midst of such attacks.
Here I said I would not get into a fight about this, and that is exactly what happened.
This is for Bryan --
ReplyDelete(later I have a response for Big K)
Bryan, as Mike said earlier: "There were no ties between Iraq to Al Qaeda." Sadaam was a non-religious secularist and he and Osama Bin Laden were diametrically opposed. If anything, Sadaam's lust for gold was his Achilles heel -- a tool we could have used to beat him at his own game. Bin Laden hated Sadaam as much as we did. There were many more clever, intelligent ways to usurp this dictator -- rather than to carpet bomb Iraqi children, kill 2,000 of our own soldiers, (15,000 U.S. soldiers now have no arms or legs) and start WWIII in the process. EVERYONE hates us now. I have heard from all over the world that America has the most shameful reputation. We were once a blessed nation; but this administration (which is neither conservative nor democratic; just power-mad) has ruined the basic freedoms we stand for. Bush has singlehandedly inflamed the whole world against us and actually CREATED MORE TERRORISM! It's obvious; wake up and stop denying it.
If a "good" nation dropped bombs on us "for our own good" wouldn't you rise up to attack the invaders? More and more regular Muslims have become extremists just to combat American aggression. And you aren't hearing all the stories because our propaganda machine is working overtime. And new terrorist groups are pouring into Iraq from all over.
Also, the U.S. is not supposed to have a policy of assassination. When did all this change -- that we publicly announce we are going to kill Sadaam, rather than secretly usurping him with allies in the underground?
My whole beef with Bush is that he calls himself a Christian, yet operates TOTALLY FROM FEAR (which is the opposite of love, or God. "I did not give you a spirit of fear" God says, and "Love casts out fear." Bush attacks his enemies preemptively, making everyone more fearful, and drumming up fake data to convince us to be more afraid -- rather than taking 911 as a wakeup call to be more vigilant, and more thoughtful in our national policty. We should have saved our precious soldier's lives and stayed united (remember how Americans from both parties came together right after 911, flags on cars, patriotism ) -- before Bush and Homeland Security started scaring us with the duct-tape on windows hogwash. We could have built a solid nation -- not by going out to attack others, but by cleaning up our own wrongs, our own homeland. Rebuilding our nation internally, wisely. And learning about our enemies instead of saying it's weak to "understand the enemy!" What motivates the mindset of suicide bombers? How can they hate us so much as to blow themselves up? Wouldn't it be good to know the root of all this vengeance -- before we triple the damage? Haven't we learned enough about an eye-for-an-eye from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
Mike went on to say: The Iraqis dont want us occupying their land...Good soldiers dying everyday because of this, in my opinion I would feel safer if they were back home securing our borders or rooting out terrorism in Afghanistan like they should have been."
Sadaam was a sadistic tyrant and a mass murderer and a buffoon, but we had the whole world watching him, we were hovering over him and THERE WAS NO NEED to carpet bomb Iraq just to get one man; there was no imminent danger or need to rush to war. Even the CIA has admitted there was no evidence of WMD. And later they said Sadaam was all bluster and ego, everyone kept saying he had no real weapons. WAR SHOULD ALWAYS BE A LAST RESORT. Everyone with an ounce of sense, morality or compassion for their fellow man KNEW BUSH WAS LYING, MANIPULATING, FORCING A WAR DOWN OUT THROATS. What a heinous thing to do, to take war so lightly. Deep inside you knew it, but you don't want to admit it; it would tear down all your assumptions about being on the " good side". We all wanted to believe the evidence was there to justify this evil, evil "war" , but EVERY SINGLE SPIRITUAL LEADER, INCLUDING POPE JOHN PAUL beseeched bush to stop, but he knew better.
He could not have been listening to the God of Love.
Worfeus,
ReplyDeleteMan you are able to write quick, and you mentioned my rapid fire posts. I do not over look your points and the wrongs commited. I acknowledged them, numerous times. And the church has as well, numerous times. And you have not responded to my earlier post, that ordinary people of the time had no fear of the Inquisition. At least Cervantes did not, he seamed to think it was a good thing.
You went into the history of the church at great length, and I have nothing to dispute. I never said those things never happened, and I will not. I know they did. What I am disputing is your assertion that the whole thing is corrupt. That is it, period. By your reasoning they look for the most evil guy they can find to be the next pope. That is simply false. You also assert that there is no shame in the past according to me and others. Also false. I sought to show you there was a legitimate reason for the Inquisition, and there was good produced from it. That there were grievous offenses to the teaching of the church, I say again, I am not disputing. That you have done much reading and are a learned individual I have much respect for. You should know I have done no small amount of reading myself, and are fairly knowledgeable regarding the religion I profess.
As to when the Inquisition actually began or ended, we are arguing over semantics. You produced names and dates, so did I. We each get a star and a smiley face. That the church was aware of torture techniques I will also not dispute. They were used on Catholics by the Romans for a few hundred years. I am sure they learned something in that time. And later the Romans became Catholics, and I am sure they did not forget their old tricks. All I asserted was the official dates of its beginning and official end.
Lastly, I have never known a priest with a Cadillac. That is a new one on me. All of the priests I know drive donated vehicles, and have little money for gas to come to my home for a free meal. Your experience could be different, but I doubt it is the norm.
"Here the country had finally given liberals a war against fundamentalism and they didn't want to fight it. They would have, except it would put them on the same side as the United States." -- Ann Coulter
ReplyDeleteI did read that post. I did not respond to it because I thought it did not fully respond to mine. That some people used the system is your whole argument? So what? And that was not the reason (or at least not the only reason) the people were looking for an Inquisition. There were numerous examples of people stealing and worse from the lay people at the time by using their faith against them. What of that? And no, I did not get this idea from catholic.com, or any other .com for that matter. This information was presented in many books, by many people over the years many of whom LIVED THROUGH IT. I would not trust much from the internet on this regard.
ReplyDeleteIt is an old argument, because it was used originally to get the papacy to pay attention to the problems they were interested in correcting. That does not show that the arguement is false. You have failed to convince me otherwise.
Anonymous said - "And Lydia and Worfeus your both right. A CIA backed underground plot to get Saddam would have been brilliant."
ReplyDeleteI have never heard Lydia mention or approve/disaprove of a rebellion.
The option of a possible rebellion was discussed by both Worfeus and myself using various quotes, facts, etc..on a previous blog in a debate with Stevie and Eric.
And Worfeus, I had no idea the catholic church was that screwed up. :|
Johnny moo moo
Every first year seminarian? I have discussed this with completed seminarians, and they did not share your view. Produce a book, not a web page, and I will read it. Especially one that a seminarian would read. Otherwise, read my posts. I am not defending those practices, and I have said that. However, no amount of apology and public repentance will get you off that subject. It has been done, and I stated the atrocities were a source of shame. You have glossed over that acknowledgement, and thus this is getting tedious. You have not proven my assertion wrong, and I have not argued that the occurrences you cite did not happen. I simply say it is not the whole truth.
ReplyDeleteSorry my posts do not seam to be coming fast enough for you Worfeus. I am at work, and can not post that fast. I am not backing down, or thinking something up quick. Just busy. Don't get your hair in a knot over it.
ReplyDelete“EVERYTHING I post, unless otherwise noted, comes directly from my fingers to my keyboard.”
ReplyDeleteThat is good to know. Everything I have posted has been from my reading and study as well. That it differs from yours does not make it inferior. And since we are generalizing each others comments based on political stereotypes your last post of substance is typical of liberals. You call yourself a bona fide expert on every subject, ignore questions, and simultaneously insult the person you are talking to. I have not insulted you. It seams that you are not above that, however. When I said I wanted a book a seminarian would read I was meaning I did not want an article or opinion piece. A history book. I read history books. I would be interested in that. To often I ask for a source, a real source, and your liberal friends send me a link to a guy sitting in a basement making stuff up. If a book is on the internet, that is fine. I further was looking for a book that deals with the Inquisition that a seminarian would read. The Bible would not work here. Flavius Josephus is too old to be relevant here since he lived during the lifetime of Christ, not during the Inquisition. And Farrar's Life of Christ does not work since it does not refer to that period either. So, go fish.
There is no reason for contempt and I did not lie. Never did I say you cited such things. I said your liberal friends have, it was a joke since I am sure the people I mentioned you do not actually know. I wanted to make sure that if I asked for reference you did not cite a web page in the future. No need for offense there. The works you did cite I intend to read. But I noticed they do not mention the Inquisition, which is our discussion, and that is what I wanted a reference concerning. For someone not concerned with offending and name calling you sure are sensitive. Glass houses, buddy.
ReplyDeleteI am going home tonight, once there I will probably be tending to my sick wife (she has a really nasty cold). So if I do not post tonight, do not miss me too much.
Worfeus, really. Get a hold on yourself. If we are talking about the Inquisition, it did not exist at the time of the New Testament, and definitely not during the Old. Flavius Josephus lived from 37-100AD. Definitely before the Inquisition. I am not saying those books are not relevant in my life in general. I am saying they do not pertain to the history of events concerning our discussion. I think you know that. If I am interested in the Great Depression I would not consult the Bible there either.
ReplyDeleteAgain, to all a good night.
Good lord, Lydia...
ReplyDeleteWe didn't carpet bomb iraqi children. We didn't "carpet bomb" Iraq at all.
And not everyone hates us. Mostly old Europe does and how many times have we been forced to pull their lilly livered butts out of a sling? The French hate us, but they always have.
It's interesting that a lot of our allies in this are former Soviet block countries who know what it's like to live under a tyrant.
If we lived under a totalitarian dictatorship that ruthlessly murdered our own people, I for one would thank god if a "good nation" dropped bombs on those in power and the forces which backed them up.
Muslims have always been extremists, most just like life too much to obey the Koran.
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes2.html#hypocrites
Your country is not always wrong, no matter how many Europeans get ticked off.
I wonder how many here would agree with this:
ReplyDelete" THE BATTLE FOR THE FUTURE WILL BE FOUGHT FROM HERE FORWARD!
YOU THINK YOU KNOW…………….BUT YOU HAVE NO IDEA…………..JUST WHAT BUSH HAS IN STORE FOR…..YOU…..US…..THE WORLD…..OUR FUTURE!
Straight up—Bush and his people aren’t just ordinary Republicans. And they’re not ordinary Christians either. They are Christian Fascists—dangerous fanatics who aim to make the U.S. a religious dictatorship and to force this upon the world. If they get their way—and they are very far along the road to getting it—society will be plunged into a high-tech Dark Ages.
Those who compare Bush to Hitler are right! But, don’t be waiting for people wearing little mustaches and marching the Nazi goose-step to come to your town. This brand of fascism is coming differently, and it’s coming straight from the White House.
Staring at Christian Fascism
People say, “they couldn’t, no they just wouldn’t” strip away “classic” U.S. democracy and plunge us into fascism. But let’s see what they’ve done… and what they plan to do.
Bush believes that he is on a “mission from God,” and so do his cronies. Army General William Boykin recently declared that the Iraqi people were the “face of Satan,” that the Christian God was the only true and “real” god, and that “God himself” put Bush in the White House. He said all this publicly and in uniform, no less—and after people protested it, Boykin was promoted! Over the years these Christian Fascists have dug in at every level of the courts, the army and Congress. BUT NOW THEY PLAN TO GO FURTHER, moving more thoroughly into the highest levels of power. Supreme Court Justice Scalia and other highly placed Republicans want to wipe out the separation of church and state, and use government to support and enforce religious belief.
Bush has launched a worldwide “crusade.” In the name of “good vs. evil,” he’s killed tens of thousands of people in Iraq, and maybe more—and still the war rages. In the name of “fighting terror”, he justifies torturing people in prisons like Guantanamo and murdering wounded prisoners in Iraq. This proven liar has rammed through a new “doctrine” that lets him wage war whenever and wherever he says he “sees a threat”, and there is no telling where he’ll stop. The U.S. has long committed monstrous crimes around the world … and NOW THEY PLAN TO GO FURTHER. The imperialists in power—all of them, with Bush at the core—want total global empire. Bush himself believes in Armageddon, that Islam is “evil”, and that he is “fighting for God.” How many people, halfway ’round the world or right down the block, will lose their lives to this lunacy? Lunacy backed up by, and serving, imperialism.
Bush’s gang suppresses science. They’ve taken control of scientific agencies. They promote “creationism” against evolution and they suppress scientific research on life-and-death issues like global warming, the AIDS epidemic, and stem-cell research. Unless they can use it to make money or make weapons, Bush’s people hate the scientific spirit of trying to figure out how the world really works. Science calls into question their dogmatic interpretation of the Bible that prepares people to sacrifice for “god and country”—and never ask why.
Bush is dismantling democratic rights. Tens of thousands of immigrants have been detained and deported for little, if any, reason and thousands more have been imprisoned with no charges—many for years. The Bush regime spies on political and religious groups. It suppresses ordinary protests with massive force, including even tanks in the streets. And it openly disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Black voters in the last election. All this, AND NOW THEY PLAN ON GOING FURTHER. Bush aims to pass more fascist laws, his flunkies threaten artists and intellectuals who dare to step outside the lines, they are invading all aspects of daily life—and it is an open question as to whether any rights at all will be left standing.
Bush’s Morality: Hypocrisy and Hatred
Bush talks about “values,” but if you’re a single woman and you want to live your own life … or if you’re gay and proud … these Christian Fascists have you in their cross-hairs. They’ve severely restricted the right to abortion and tried to put independent-minded women on the defensive. They whipped up anti-gay hatred as a big part of their presidential campaign. BUT NOW THEY ARE GOING MUCH FURTHER. Bush aims to appoint new Supreme Court justices who will totally outlaw abortion, and he wants to pass a constitutional amendment against gay marriage. And these fascists also go after the more humane forms of Christianity that don’t share their hateful bigotry.
“Values?” These people have the morality of a lynch mob! If you are Black or Latino, and especially if you are up against the merciless conditions of the inner city … then you too are in the cross-hairs. Bush plans to rip out even social security. He wants to do health care, education, welfare, and even prisons through churches that are directly approved, funded by and answering to the government. These churches will not “lift people up”—and these programs will degrade people, insisting that they agree that their hunger, their homelessness, and their problems flow from their “sins”—and not from a system that has oppressed them from Day One. And the full Christian Fascist plan—which includes vastly expanded capital punishment for minor crimes, in accord with Old Testament “morality”—is far worse, with a downright genocidal direction to it.
A Time for Resistance
Are we exaggerating? If anything, people have always under-estimated just how fast and how far Bush would go. And now he claims a “mandate” for his lunacy. No, Bush and the people around him are deadly serious and aim to go much further than almost anyone expects.
As for “mandate?” BULL! The will of the people was NOT expressed in this election. Kerry didn’t call Bush out for his lies and deception, or expose the real horrors of Bush’s deeds—and his plans. There was no real fight, and people should not grant a shred of legitimacy to Bush.
And waiting for yet another Democrat to disappoint and betray people four years from now is not only worthless—it may be way too late. What we need now, very urgently and very immediately, is RESISTANCE."
Sound like this thread so far?...
In case you were wondering, here's the rest:
ReplyDelete"Resistance, in the words of Bob Avakian, Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party, “that refuses to be bound by the terms of mainstream politics or the notion that this politics represents the ’ultimate word’ on the ’will of the people.’ Resistance that will not just protest the juggernaut of war and fascism but go all-out to STOP it. Resistance that will reach out and win over people who have been deceived by this madness but whose deepest interests are opposed to it. Resistance that will be united—but will still include space for dreams and debate.”
We can build on the past resistance to the Iraq war and other Bush outrages. But this must come back together and take a huge leap with major actions when Bush is inaugurated on January 20th, 2005. People everywhere must see that there really ARE “two Americas,” squaring off over the future.
The Revolutionary Way Out
This Christian Fascism didn’t materialize out of thin air. It arose on the basis of CAPITALISM and the most powerful capitalists support it (even as they fight among themselves).
What do we mean by capitalism? Today, people could produce enough food, housing and clothing to provide a decent life to everyone on the planet. But the means to do this are owned and controlled by a handful of global capitalist-imperialists who are driven to get ever greater profit, or else go under. And so half the people on the planet live on less than $2 a day. Billions go hungry. People are driven from country to city and then around the world, desperately seeking work, while communities in the U.S. are left to rot. And now the Bush lunacy has taken this to an even more terrible level.
But imagine a different future. A future where people consciously learn about and transform the world, and are not imprisoned in the chains of tradition and ignorance. A world without racism and without borders. A vibrant place, where people together debate and decide how to develop society. A world where people no longer wonder where their next meal will come from, or if they will be homeless, or abandoned or sick in their old age—a world of abundance, where people together hold all of society’s resources in common. A world where people not only work to produce the necessities of life, but get into art and culture and science—and have fun doing it! A world without the domination of women by men, where people interact with each other based on mutual respect, concern and love for humanity. A world that looks out for and takes care of the environment.
That world is communism. And we can get to that world.
A Revolutionary Society
But how? Through revolution—where those who are today exploited and oppressed rise up and defeat the powers-that-be. A revolution led by the class that owns nothing but its ability to work, and yet works together to make the world run. A revolution in which this class steps on to the stage of history and leads tens of millions more—including the millions who hate the cruel reign of Bush and the Christian fascists.
Revolutions don’t happen overnight, or by accident. But when a deep crisis suddenly erupts in society, and when a revolutionary party has been actively organizing and preparing people for such an opening, and when millions of people begin to think we need a basic change … and become a “revolutionary people” … then dreams can be seized in the clear light of day. No, we’re not there yet—but the extreme changes being wrought by the Bush crew could very well lead to such a crisis. And our Party is doing all it can to bring forward a revolutionary people to seize that time, whenever it may come.
People have made this kind of revolution before—first in Russia, then in China. And they accomplished amazing things. In the end, however, those revolutions were finally turned back and defeated by the guardians of the old order. But building on their tremendous accomplishments—and examining deeply and unsparingly their negative experiences—Bob Avakian has brought forward a radical new “model” and vision of what this socialist society must be all about.
Socialist society will enable people to solve the most burning problems that bedevil us today. The “rule of profit” will be shattered and there will be jobs, health care, decent housing and stimulating education—for everyone. Communities will be centers where people join to solve the problems that hold society back. The racism and white supremacy that is woven so deeply into the fabric of American capitalism, and the chains of women’s oppression that still weigh so heavily, will be struggled against and uprooted—from the gitgo! And the socialist state will not oppress other nations—instead, it will support revolution all around the world.
But even more crucially, the new society will unleash people to change the world. People will count for something—in fact, for everything. Those who were formerly locked out of working with ideas will do exactly that—they will work with their minds and participate in society in an all-round way. The leadership of society will work to unleash diverse thinking and action from the bottom up and everywhere else. It will foster dissent, including opposition to the government itself; it will learn all it can from people, so that society can move forward. The youth will be treasured for their dreams, their daring … and their impatience. There will be ferment and upheaval—far beyond what we can imagine today.
And yes, there must be, and there will be, firm leadership to hold onto power for the people and to guide all the complex and challenging struggle. Through this whole process, and as other revolutions develop around the world, the state itself will draw more and more millions into the direct rule of every part of society until the division of people into ruler and ruled is finally overcome, in communist society.
This socialism, as envisioned by Bob Avakian, will embrace scientists, intellectuals, and artists. They’ll continue their intellectual and artistic work, deepening the store of human knowledge, even as they break down barriers with other sections of society, especially the formerly exploited and oppressed. The leadership of society won’t fear their tendency to question everything, or to look at things in new ways. On the contrary, it will welcome this in a way that no other society can—for without lively questioning and “air to breathe”, socialism would not be a place people would want to live, nor would it open up the road to communism.
In this revolutionary society people will be able to practice religion and go to church—or not—as they please. But the schools, and the government generally, will promote a scientific approach to understanding and changing material reality. On that basis, a new morality will be forged. It will cherish the lives of the people of the world and uphold equality between nations and peoples and between men and women. It will value struggle against the oppressive relations that still remain, and not resignation and surrender to them.
The Clash of Two Futures
Two futures confront each other. Will imperialism force a future of darkness and suffocation onto the people? Will tens of millions more needlessly suffer and die? OR, will the critical spirit be unleashed in a way that does a great GOOD for humanity? Will society move forward in a revolutionary direction and set about removing the great suffering and misery cast down on the people by capitalism?
To put it another way, which vision will prevail: that of George W. Bush? Or of Bob Avakian?
Each of us has a part in answering this question. We know that the job is huge, the time is short, and the odds are long. Yet we are down for this, all the way down, and optimistic as well.
But let us put it to YOU: if you’ve been agonizing about the future, if you nodded your head as you read this statement, then… what are YOU gonna do? Are YOU going to be one of thousands who come together now and help create the force that can lead millions against this madness, when millions are ready to be led? Will you help create and bring onto the stage a revolutionary people? Are you ready to check out this Party and this leader? Will you bring your ideas, your creativity, your questions and yes, your disagreements to us, and help figure out how we can rise to the occasion? Are YOU ready to make a real difference—to not only spread the word of resistance and revolution, but make that a real alternative in society?
Don’t let Bush determine the future. Spread this statement to your friends. Talk about it with them. And check us out. Now."
Revolutionary Communist Party, USA
Websites: http://rwor.org and http://bobavakian.net
You can tell a lot about a person (or a group) by who their allies are...
ReplyDeleteGee worf,
ReplyDeleteThat high horse gets taller every day don't it?
And what makes you think I was even talking to you?
And that's "unlike previous TIME"
ReplyDeleteOf course that's good for you though, because now you get to malign and dismiss me. How convienient for you.
Sorry I interupted YOUR longwinded pontificating.
I read the following and was reminded of Lydia and Worfeus.
ReplyDeleteE.J. Dionne:
"Ah, yes, the president and his people have a lot of enemies out there, but his friends are just as exercised. A reader from San Diego offered a view that was repeated in many different forms: 'Most liberals and some Democrats hate this president and will do anything to bring him down, including siding with terrorists against the president.'
That is why the approval ratings for President Bush are bouncing back. Nothing he has done but the stupidity of the liberals.
We know who makes America safe - thanks again Bush and co.
I better run to get back to my double-wide in time to watch O'Reilly.
P.S. Don't put duct tape on your windows Lydia - it is tough to get the glue off later:)
a Guy from Bush Country
Gee,
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that when someone discusses a topic that doesn't fit your sensibilities its:
"if you actually took the time too read the articles that define this Blogs very purpose, you will see that there are two arguments.
The war is wrong.
And the Christian Right is influencing the division of Church and State.
And when YOU'RE off topic its:
"a nice little hatful comment that has NOTHING to do with the current coversation in the room.
People usually try to talk to the thread."
I'm sure you have a wonderfully contorted and manufactured explanation though...
You've been having a 2 day "discussion" and I need to get a job?
ReplyDeletewow
Well, I'm tired so I'll leave you to it for now. On a cautionary note, he'll get tired of your semantics and word games eventually. Of course you'll declare victory. Easy to win when you make up the rules as you go along....
Have fun!
Asinus asinum fricat
Great Post Lydia, I also was surprised about that ridiculous Duct Tape Fiasco, what did certain government officials own stock in 3M and were trying to make a quick buck, or was it an experiment to see how easily they could manipulate the sheep like masses.
ReplyDeleteAnd Worfeus, I watched Jesse Ventura last night right after you mentioned it in your post, he was awesome, everything he said was 100% right. too bad there arent more intelligent people like him in politics who care about doing what is right and making the world a better place for everyone instead of just for themselves.
Mike
Jan 4 1943
ReplyDeleteJosef Stalin appears as Time's 1942 "Man of the Year".
Wow worfeus. That was a long post. One thing it missed. A book, a seminarian would read, regarding the history of the Inquisition, whereby the cause of it is found to be criminals trying to get a better court to try their case. It is what you assert. It is what I have agreed to read. You can post one example and call victory for yourself. I have tried in the last few days to find something that supports that and have been unable. If my absolute ignorance is such that I slept through that lesson in Sunday School and missed that episode on the History Channel and cannot find those books though they are right in front of my face, I ask you to help me cure myself of it. I would be eternally grateful. However, if you are unable to produce such a work in this, the second day I have asked for it, what choice do I have but to believe what I have read, flawed as it may be?
ReplyDeleteAs for the rest, you did not plagiarize. Did everyone get that? I never said you did. You never cited a web site. I never said you did. You never cut and pasted from a web cite. I never said you did. Are you starting to see a pattern here? What I did say was that I had respect for your study and reading. Would you like me to retract that? I grow tired of pandering to your ego while enduring your insults and misinterpretations. It is not becoming of an educated person. I never tried to discredit your sources, I have said repeatedly I would like to read one!!!!
I never refuted your facts. I have said that as well. I simply shed light on what may have been a misunderstanding between us. You looked at all suppression of heresy. Great, I said in the beginning I was talking about the Spanish Inquisition as it was commonly known and understood. It was not “perhaps” what I meant, it was exactly what I said. I thought that would clear up confusion. Apparently not. You want to expand our discussion to encompass more, that is great. But the history lesson is something I am well aware of. I think the fact that I did not resist your information is what made you so mad. Be that as it may, you were right, can we finally move on?
As for not reposting your comments before discussing them, I rarely do that, anywhere. I think the people I have these discourses with are smart enough to remember what they wrote. If you would like a reminder, let me know and I will oblige. Call it a personal thing. Some people do not capitalize anything, I do not repost comments or use many contractions.
Hey Worthless, why don't you get a job! No wonder you are not a republican, as you sit at home doing blogs all day.
ReplyDeleteJohn Kerry was beating the Hell out of Bush on election day. Then when the Republicans got out of work and Bush won. Hopefully, we can get more unemployed people in America so Democrats can win!
ReplyDeleteLike I said, where is your book I should read. I am still waiting.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you want to read into my posts and get your underwear in a bunch that is your issue. I did not say anything you allege I did, and if you took it that way it was not my intent. I will not waste my time continuing to assuage your hurt feelings, that I admittedly did not intend to offend. As stated, a few times.
As to my blog etiquette, sorry. I just never did that. I think it wastes space. I can read, and I announce what I am talking about. I think it is fair enough. Not reposting your comments so you can read them again does not mean I ignored them.
Anyway, we went from the Inquisition to your hurt feelings. I prefer more substantial intellectual fare than your emotions. And on the subject of the Inquisition I see only one thing left to discuss, as I have agreed with most of what you said, but the reason for the thing. And on that subject, again, I am looking for a book that I can read to cure me of my ignorance. Either you have one in the sea of information you have read over the many years of your study, or not. At first I sincerely thought you did, and was looking forward to seeing it. After 2 days I am beginning to wonder.
I conveniently refused to address? I ACKNOLEDGED IT. Man, I should not have to repeat myself so many times in a place where you can simply go back and read my previous posts. At this point you are ignoring my request for a book. Fair enough, but it is you avoiding the argument, not me. You said...
ReplyDelete“The fact that almost every book ever written on the subject, including the the complete works of Flavius Josephus, and Farrar's Life of Christ is available on the Internet, is not my problem.”
Those are not about the Inquisition. And there, I posted your own post, you should be happy.
You also said....
“Keep it up, and I'll start reposting, so you can read MY WORDS, and the quotes from famous ancient historic documents, that I studied over a quarter of a Century ago here at Catholic University , something else I have also told you, that you repeatedly fail to grasp.”
As I said, I am interested in a book. Unless you have a PhD in Catholic History pertaining to the Inquisition, you are not a reference for me. And even if you were, you would have read at least one book.
You said my facts were wrong, you contradict the reading and honest study I have made. You allege I am ignorant of apparent fact “every first year seminarian would know.” Fine, tell me what to read. Put up or shut up.
Lydia, please pay special attention to this. I have paid this person respect, actually said twice I respect them. I have not made personal attacks, have apologized for perceived attacks, and simply asked for information this person says is prevalent. How else could I have tried to come to common ground? And all this after they picked a fight I said I did not want.
I see your point Big K. I haven't read all of Worfeus & your own posts in detail -- am working on a deadline and can't do it now -- but in general I think what Worfeus is appalled by, is anyone defending the Inquisition AT ALL, EVER. (Any book or anything on the web written by an apologist, has to be taken with a grain of salt. One must always investigate the background and motives of the writer, ie: what is their motive in defending it?)
ReplyDeleteThe Inquisition was one of the most shameful times in human history -- and it's like being an apologist for the Nazi holocaust. How can anyone say that any good came out of it? All the books ever written about it say the same thing. I'm sure there's one or two book out there that defend it, but the horrors been written countless times. Edgar Allen Poe wrote horror stories about the Inquisition and so did Dostoevsky. These were novels of course, but nonetheless, based on fact. "Torquemada en la Hoguera" was a novel by Galdos which I read in Spanish, (I speak Spanish.) Maybe this is the book - which tries to recreate Torquemada as a good guy, but not for the reasons you think.
Alright, I keep asking you for a book. I will give you one.
ReplyDelete“They Catholic Church Through the Ages” by John Vidmar. John has a PhD in History and is a University professor. His credentials are impeccable. According to him, the Inquisition of the Middle Ages is not to be confused with the Spanish Inquisition, whose dates coincide with the ones I earlier stated. But the two put together are consistent with your dates. The reasons for the Inquisition in the middle ages were that many people were being led astray by lay people preaching things differing from the Church. This gets interesting, and an inquisition was ordered when people started to preach Jesus was evil, and that suicide was a good idea. The first execution happened in 350 AD against the wishes of the pope, and the bishop of the province. Many abuses were perpetrated, as all of us know. Many of them were done by the church authorities, but many were also committed by the local government to gain the land of the people accused. 1 out of 100 people accused were executed, 15 out of 100 were given prison dates. Many of the prison sentences were reduced when the inquisitors left town. Everyone thinks that the Inquisition only had to do with heretical activity. But things far more benign were included at the time. King Henry’s divorce came under the Inquisition, for instance.
The Spanish Inquisition, he said, should be considered separate because after the initial involvement of Rome, the King of Spain began exceeding his mandate according to Sixtus. When the pope arrested the archbishop for this and tried to reign in the proceedings, the king denied the pope and excluded him from the process. Thus, much of the Spanish Inquisition happened against the wishes of the papacy.
While, again, abuses certainly happened, and people were tortured for confessions and forcibly converted, the numbers are generally exaggerated, according to Vidmar. Some positives came from it, however. The process of investigation produced for the Inquisition of the Middle Ages is still used by the FBI today.
Look at the book, it was a good read. I found it at Barnes and Noble on my lunch break just now.
Again, here is your post Worfeus.
ReplyDelete“And any first year seminary student would know this.
It is common knowledge that the Inquistion was an easy way to escape a criminal charge.”
You later disagree with me by saying that the escape of criminal charge is the reason for the Inquisition.
Hence my charge that you should come up with a book that every first year seminarian would read to back it up. I produced one. You should too. The fact that the author of this book agrees with me is not the point. I am looking for a book that agrees with you. I can not find one. So I ask you to delve into your abundant resources and find one. But alas. You now say it does not exist.
“I don't know of a particular book off hand where you may find that argument”
So did you make it up? I hope not. If you did not, there should be a reference. As for Cervantes, the book is at home, let me see if I can find what I am talking about in the 700 pages contained therein tonight and get back to you. It was a while since I read the book, I admit, but that part made an impression on me.
Lydia. I am not defending the Inquisition. I am interested in the facts, and learning more. But when you have someone obviously biased writing “history” you end up with some funny ideas that never happened. There is nothing wrong with knowing the facts. And that is all I am interested in feting here. The grievous abuses during the Inquisition are not to be defended. Please do not think I am so callous as to say that.
I think a very good point was made that Bush utilizes fear, both on our own citizens as well as on his enemies to achieve what he desires.
ReplyDeleteHe uses fear to make people think his wars and assaults on our civil liberties and personal freedoms are justified and he tries to brainwash people to make them believe we need his protection.
He also appears to want the rest of the world fear us, particularly those nations he considers enemys, an example of this is when he called North Korea and Iraq an Axis of Evil, basically implying that they were next on his hit list. tactics and propaganda like this only serve to inflame the rest of the world against us, even our allies have to question blindly following our lead
Another unnerving thing about his philosophy is his "you're either with us or against us mentality" despite what he says there are always shades of grey in life, nothing is black and white. just because someone doesnt agree with you, doesnt make them an ememy. I have to say that although Star Wars doesnt compare to Lord of The Rings or many of the other great classics, there are some eerie parallels, particularly "The if you're not with me your my ememy" philosophy, and the war that isnt what it appears to be, and is actually a first step to seizing power and installing a dictatorship to enslave the masses.
My question is does anyone think Lucas wrote this story as is years ago and it is just an eerie coincidence that it mirrors in many ways our political climate today, or do you think he purposely revised the story to resemble the world we live in today
Mike
Worfeus, I never said the fact that people accused of crimes did not seek trial by the Inquisition instead of the secular court. I said it was not the reason for the Inquisition. The fact that people did that is common knowledge, but not a reason for the overall occurrence. But if it were, would that not constitute the people wanting an Inquisition? In any case, please stop reposting that article. I know you are proud of it, and I did read it. From now on, however, I will ignore subsequent posts of it. It is interesting that your argument hinges on a discussion you had with someone years ago, while I cited a book written by a historian and you claim a superior argument. Hmmmm.
ReplyDeletePeople did not cry for the rack. That is obvious. They wanted the church to do something about the wrongs being committed in their time. That it got out of hand in some places is, again, obvious and very well known and apologized for and a source of shame on the church and so forth. And again, for like the fifth time, not able to be defended.
For my Cervantes quote, you will have to wait. As stated, I am not in direct possession of my copy of the book right now since I am at work. And it may take some time for me to find the quote. But it will be forthcoming, otherwise I will retract that statement. Your comment about Cervantes being jailed is correct, by the way.
Here is what WORFEUS orginally posted.
ReplyDelete_______________________________
BIG K SAID
Your Bible quotes are interesting, but prove little as far as the corruption of the Church
Oh no? Better tell Martin Luther that. Those scriptures have been used for centuries to point to the apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.
Big K said
That the Church has sinners in her midst is not proof that her teachings are wrong
I think you need to go back and re-read my 120AM post that you are responding to.
Having sinners in her midst is not the same as the heirarchy being populated by evil, corrupt devils and murderers.
It was not the membership my post was referring to.
It was the clergy.
And the clergy is the Church. If the priesthood is corrupt, so is the Church. If the fruit is corrupt, so is the tree. At least that's what Jesus said.
Big K said
The Inquisition lasted 400 years (not 700) because many generations of people thought it necessary.
Lets see about that.
Pope Gregory IX first introduced the Papal decree in 1251, which manifested in letters to the French Bishops, ordering stricter methods of weeding out heresy.
In 1252 Pope Innocent IV issued the now famous Ad exstirpanda, a Papal "Bull" or Bulla, which authorized the use of harsher torture (hmmm, sound familiar?) for rooting out heretics, witches and necromancers. The 1251 Fransiscan letters, coupled with the 1252 Papal Bull, began the official start of what is referred to as the Papal Inquisition, which spread it's bony fingers throughout southern France and northern Italy.
The interesting thing about the Ad exstirpanda issued by the peculiarly named Pope Innocent IV, is that it not only specfically authorized the use of not only torture, but burning heretics alive at the stake.
See Big K, this is not just a few sinners in her midst.
It is the entire mother Church at Rome, ordering that people, human beings, be burned alive.
This is also what you call, bad fruits.
And it was not the membership. It was the leadership.
In 1478 Sixtus IV authorized the Holy "inquiro" or inquistion, which happily brought the joys of good ole Christian torture to the sinful people of Spain, and elsewhere. It also introduced the world to such Christlike figures as Tomas Torquemada, who single-handedly burned alive over 2000 people deemed to be heretics.
Nice guy. :|
And lets not forget the oh so lovely Christians, Ferdinand and Isabella, who sent ravaging Christian armies throughout the Iberian peninsula forcing the Jews and Muslims to join the mother church.
Of course, they didn't have to join.
They just sent the ones who didn't to Jesus a little early, for some onsite instruction.
Now the Spanish Inquistion did not start to wind down until 1808 with the Holy Office officially abolished by Mother Cristina inn 1834, and since it was a branch of the Bull Ad exstirpanda of 1252, a year after Gregory IX sent his letters to the french Bishops, were are looking at 582 years there alone, 583 if you count the Gregory Fransican letters.
183 years higher than your 400 years estimate.
But lets not stop there. I said 700 years, so lets see why I said that.
The Papal Inquistion began to be semi-officially dismantled in 1768, but the official inquirio was not replaced by the Holy Office until 1908, a whopping 657 years after the official order was first introduced, at least that we have records of. And then technically this institution, which was just an extension of the Inquistion, was not replaced until 1965 by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. So altogether, that adds up to a whopping 714 years after the original Papal decree, which was the point where the Church actually admitted to, and began to repent of the Inquistion. The current Holy father, who mysteriously turns out to be a former Nazi party member, go figure, just recently asked for forgiveness from God, for the Church, for the atrocoties committed during the Inquisitions.
714 years is a far cry from your 400 year estimate. And that is why I said 700 years.
But ok, I hear you crying now, you think they probably weren't torturing people into the 1900's. Probably not. At least not in the industrialized regions anyway.
But alas, theres more.
See the Inquistion was not the beginning of the torture for Jesus campaigns. This had been going on un-officially, for at least another 800 years. I explained that in my earlier post.
200 years prior to the official start of the Inquistion, Pope Urban II ordered the first official armed invasion of Muslim Holy land.
He assembled a semi-noble group of crusaders, headed by Peter the Hermit, Walter the Penniless, Godfrey of Bouillon, Baldwin and Eustace of Flanders, and other pious nobles, and went off to kill Turks, and anyone else who got in their way.
And it was a bloody mess.
We learn from Flavius Theodosius about the sixty-eight enactments issued from the mother church over a period of about 50 years that persecuted heretics with death, imprisonment and seizing of property as early as 380CE (AD).
And of course we know from the Divinarum Institutionum that early Church scholars were admonishing the Holy Mother Church at Rome to end their henious tortures trying to force confessions of Christ from suspected heretics.
Lactantius was admonishing the church for vile crimes and tortures, as early as the 4th century.
In 308 CE (AD) Lactantius wrote;
___________________________
"What has the rack to do with piety?
Surely there is no connection between truth and violence, between justice and cruelty.
If you attempt to defend religion with bloodshed and torture, what you do is not defense, but desecration and insult".
Lucius Caecilius Firmianus Lactantius
From the Divinarum Institutionum Libri (Divine Institutes)
___________________________
Lucius was not talking about a Ski Rack here. :|
He had witnessed first hands the beautiful, joyous confessions from penitent heretics as their bones left their sockets on the rack, and watched as not so lucky heretics were burned alive as they screamed their defience. It is believed that Lucius himself may have felt the hand of the tormenter once or twice, as he dared to speak out against the church.
In other words, Lactantius' war against the use of torture was 944 years, almost a full millenia prior to the Ad exstirpanda and the onset of the official Inquistion.
There is volumes of data on the tortures, murders, burnings, and unholy wars waged in the name of Christ by the Holy Mother Church, that span pretty much the entire history of the Church.
Now what's amazing is how much informtation we do have on this topic, considering the lengths the Church went to to hide their crimes against humanity. But we do.
As far as your statement about early Christians actually asking for the Inquistion? LOL.
Sorry buddy, but this was an old, old argument that I heard back when I studied from a master at Catholic Universtity.
The Church has been pulling out that one for a long time, because there is evidence that some people who had difficult cases in secular court, (and usually knew they were guilty), asked for the Inquistion, some even acting like Heretics so they could escape the secular courts.
In fact, you likely either got this from your parish Priest or you took it right of www.catholic.com
It is equally true that, despite what we consider the Spanish Inquisition’s lamentable procedures, many people preferred to have their cases tried by ecclesiastical courts because the secular courts had even fewer safeguards. In fact, historians have found records of people blaspheming in secular courts of the period so they could have their case transferred to an ecclesiastical court, where they would get a better hearing
Taken from Catholic.Com,
(http://www.catholic.com
/library/inquisition.asp)
Of course they would. This is not at all surprising.
See what they, the Church neglect to discuss, is that like our system, where someone pleads insanity, then just plays the system, telling the doctors what they want to hear, and eventually getting released, once the doctors cure them, these criminals were doing likewise.
These were not heretics or political or religious prisoners. These were criminals who were usually guilty, and knew if they acted as a heretic, then, let the inquistor cure them, and confess them, then they could get through the Inquisition with very little trouble.
The Inquistors were always ready to accept the confessions of a penitent heretic, so they could show the Mother Church their effectivness at healing with the tools of Christ (torture instruments), unless of course there were some political reasons for not accepting the confessions.
It's the ones that didn't confess or were considered enemies of the Church, that bore the brunt of the unspeakable horrors you call a few errant sins.
In fact, it is estimated over 3 Million people suffered at the hands of the Inquisitors over a 500 year span, with more than 300,000 being burned alive at the stake.
But hey, what's a few mass atrocities amongst friends, right?
Now I have just touched upon some of the events that span over a 1000 years of history, and I have not mentioned one one-hundredth what I could go into.
But I do not feel inclined to write you a book. Short story, sure. But not a book.
Suffice it to say there is ample evidence throughout the ages clearly demonstrating to anyone with a reasonable mind, that the Catholic Church stooped into apostasy sometime around 250 AD, and never looked back.
So I suggest you go read one of those books that you suggested I read, cause chances is are, I already read it.
About 25 years ago. :|
1:08 PM
Big K said...
Again, here is your post Worfeus.
“And any first year seminary student would know this.
It is common knowledge that the Inquistion was an easy way to escape a criminal charge.”
You later disagree with me by saying that the escape of criminal charge is the reason for the Inquisition.
Hence my charge that you should come up with a book that every first year seminarian would read to back it up. I produced one. You should too. The fact that the author of this book agrees with me is not the point. I am looking for a book that agrees with you. I can not find one. So I ask you to delve into your abundant resources and find one. But alas. You now say it does not exist.
“I don't know of a particular book off hand where you may find that argument”
So did you make it up? I hope not. If you did not, there should be a reference. As for Cervantes, the book is at home, let me see if I can find what I am talking about in the 700 pages contained therein tonight and get back to you. It was a while since I read the book, I admit, but that part made an impression on me.
Lydia. I am not defending the Inquisition. I am interested in the facts, and learning more. But when you have someone obviously biased writing “history” you end up with some funny ideas that never happened. There is nothing wrong with knowing the facts. And that is all I am interested in feting here. The grievous abuses during the Inquisition are not to be defended. Please do not think I am so callous as to say that.
2:02 PM
worfeus said...
(Observe the beauty of the repost Big K, observe)
BIG K JUST SAID
"The grievous abuses during the Inquisition are not to be defended.
Please do not think I am so callous as to say that"
BUT WAIT, BIG K SAID THIS EARLIER
"I sought to show you there was a legitimate reason for the Inquisition, and there was good produced from it"
See?
There's a reason we RE-POST in here.
Because when you try to slither your way out of what you actually said, we can re-post it, for ALL to see.
:P
2:32 PM
Anonymous said...
I think a very good point was made that Bush utilizes fear, both on our own citizens as well as on his enemies to achieve what he desires.
He uses fear to make people think his wars and assaults on our civil liberties and personal freedoms are justified and he tries to brainwash people to make them believe we need his protection.
He also appears to want the rest of the world fear us, particularly those nations he considers enemys, an example of this is when he called North Korea and Iraq an Axis of Evil, basically implying that they were next on his hit list. tactics and propaganda like this only serve to inflame the rest of the world against us, even our allies have to question blindly following our lead
Another unnerving thing about his philosophy is his "you're either with us or against us mentality" despite what he says there are always shades of grey in life, nothing is black and white. just because someone doesnt agree with you, doesnt make them an ememy. I have to say that although Star Wars doesnt compare to Lord of The Rings or many of the other great classics, there are some eerie parallels, particularly "The if you're not with me your my ememy" philosophy, and the war that isnt what it appears to be, and is actually a first step to seizing power and installing a dictatorship to enslave the masses.
My question is does anyone think Lucas wrote this story as is years ago and it is just an eerie coincidence that it mirrors in many ways our political climate today, or do you think he purposely revised the story to resemble the world we live in today
Mike
2:43 PM
worfeus said...
As for me making up the reference or finding a book that agrees with me on my reasoning as to WHY PEOPLE MAY HAVE OPTED FOR THE INQUISTORS COURT, INSTEAD OF A SECULAR ONE?
Listen up chief, because you are starting to wear on me.
What did I say genius?
WORFEUS SAID
Sorry buddy, but this was an old, old argument that I heard back when I studied from a master at Catholic University.
I NEVER quoted a book or author when I offered a REASON WHY PEOPLE MAY HAVE ASKED FOR THE INQUISTION, but I DID reference the Term of Grace, which is FACT, and I did offer excerpts from Catholic.com, and a lot of reasonable logic.
YOU made the claim that the Inquisition wasn’t so bad and tried, LOL, to tell us that the people wanted it.
But you NEVER responded to the reasoning and logic I posted, merely dismissing it saying Cervantes may have liked the Inquisition.
In fact, for all your cries for me to produce a book for something I told you I heard from an instructor 25 years ago, you STILL have not produced ANY quotes for where Cervantes supports your argument, that the Inquisition was not so bad
Even when I just now called you to the task to put up or shut up as you say, instead of showing some supporting references from the ONLY reference you quoted, you went across the street to Barnes and Noble and read us YOUR take on what a CATHOLIC APOLOGIST says in his book.
YOU made the original argument, and I GAVE you my response.
The balls in your court, not mine. My argument is there. And it’s a logical one.
You claimed people wanted the Inquisition, all I did was say WHY they would want it.
But why don’t you tell us there Polonius? Why don’t you tell us in all your Catholic wisdom why the poor and downtrodden hoped to find their genitialia on the end of the Grand Inquisitors iron?
Tell us why they longed for the rack. Give us one reasonable argument.
I at least offered you one possible argument that supported your side,
WORFEUS WROTE FOR BIG K
Well, I guess if I tried really hard I could see some good coming from torture.
I mean with the rack , they must have had one hell of a Christian League Basketball team :P :D
But go ahead, spend your evening reading and get some ammunition to debate me with.
But no one should have to read to understand the simple and OBVIOUS logic, in that people who did opt for the Inquistors court, over the secular court, was because they could DEFAULT TO THE TERM OF GRACE.
It's a fact, that any subject of the inquistion could recant, confess and escape harsh punishments by confessing during the Term of Grace.
That fact I can pull quotes of, but I won't.
Because if you are debating that fact, that someone could end the Inquistion by Confessing or Recanting, then you obviously don't have a clue what your talking about and know nothing about the Inquistion.
2:58 PM
worfeus said...
Also Big K, I am going to suggest that if you live anywhere close, you visit the Holocaust Museum in DC. As you pass through the doorway, you will see an inscription, So We May Never Forget,
Lydia may see your point, but I think men like you are the reason men like Hitler, and Gregory, rise to power, and why attrocities are commited throughout history.
By turning a blind eye and a deaf ear, whitewashing the account so you can feel good about yor faith, you facilitate these events.
Your apathy towards human suffering, by thinking you can make it all better by doing charitable acts, is the catalyst for these events that have dotted human history with blood and horror throughout the ages, including the mass genocide we are responsible for in Iraq right now, the murder, you call liberation.
It’s funny how well you fit the pharisaical demeanor, making apathetic statements about human suffering and yet dismissing volumes of logic and Historical Data that I produced.
By making excuses and trivializing 1500 years of blood and horror, well, as Jesus said, you strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
3:13 PM
worfeus said...
“The inquisitor should behave in a friendly manner and act as though he already knows the whole story. He should glance at his papers and say:
"It’s quite clear you are not telling the truth" or should pick up a document and look surprised, saying: "How can you lie to me like this when what I’ve got written down here contradicts everything you’ve told me?"
He should then continue:
"Just confess – you can see that I know the whole story already”
Nicholas Eymeric
Directorium inquisitorium
3:23 PM
Big K said...
Worfeus, I never said the fact that people accused of crimes did not seek trial by the Inquisition instead of the secular court. I said it was not the reason for the Inquisition. The fact that people did that is common knowledge, but not a reason for the overall occurrence. But if it were, would that not constitute the people wanting an Inquisition? In any case, please stop reposting that article. I know you are proud of it, and I did read it. From now on, however, I will ignore subsequent posts of it. It is interesting that your argument hinges on a discussion you had with someone years ago, while I cited a book written by a historian and you claim a superior argument. Hmmmm.
People did not cry for the rack. That is obvious. They wanted the church to do something about the wrongs being committed in their time. That it got out of hand in some places is, again, obvious and very well known and apologized for and a source of shame on the church and so forth. And again, for like the fifth time, not able to be defended.
For my Cervantes quote, you will have to wait. As stated, I am not in direct possession of my copy of the book right now since I am at work. And it may take some time for me to find the quote. But it will be forthcoming, otherwise I will retract that statement. Your comment about Cervantes being jailed is correct, by the way.
3:56 PM
worfeus said...
But if it were, would that not constitute the people wanting an Inquisition?
Well, if your point is to play word games and sound smart, ok, yes, you could say that constitutes people wanting the Inquistion.
But thats not what the post said from the Catholic website, is it?
They prefered it to secular court.
SO?
I never argued that point, did I?
In fact I agreed with it.
But once one decides that people preferred the Inquisition to Civil court, one has to ask why.
Therein lied the response you have been whinning and throwing red herrings out for 2 days now.
You tried to make my argument for me, which is why you said you didn't like to repost, because you knew what my argument was, you just could'nt refute it.
Like you can't now.
I agreed with you over and over that there is evidence people chose the Inquistors court over Civil courts.
I just offered a logical reason why they would.
Your word games have yet to demonstrate any other logical reason.
Of course, as soon as you do, then you are defending the Inquisition, something we already know you are not doing, right?
4:41 PM
MAY ALL THE GIFTS HIDDEN INSIDE YOU MAKE THEIR WAY INTO THE WORLD, AND MAY ALL YOUR DEEPEST DREAMS COME TRUE.
Sending each and every one of you LOVE... and wishes for a joyous, abundant, wondrous year full of peace, harmony, prosperity -- and AN END TO WAR!! God Bless You!
No, I have not joined a Halloween cult. This is a photo of Claudia Wells ("Back to the Future") and me at Chiller in New Jersey, Oct. 2005. The guy in costume is scaring us, which reminds me of our current political climate. Sorry for all the changing pictures; my web guy can't be reached and I want to post the new photos with friends!)
2005 wrap-up:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
I have to admit I'm getting a little paranoid here, wondering if my e-mails are being monitored or I'm being spied upon simply because I don't agree with the corruption of this administration. What a terrifying thought: that the very freedoms our country was built on -- freedom of thought, religion and speech -- are being usurped. The blatant propaganda of the Fox network has contributed to this Orwellian climate of fear. And the news blackout on electronic voting fraud is also quite astounding.
This Christmas, I have to say that I spent hours in prayer for the mothers, children and spouses of soldiers who died in Iraq. I can't imagine spending the holidays without your only child -- and my heart goes out to all of you.
Here is a letter I got from a Marine Combat Vet in November:
Dear Lydia,
I heard you on the radio with Brad tonight. For what it's worth, Lydia, you have my strong and full support here in my little corner of the world in Oklahoma. I can barely stand the thought of our kids fighting bravely in a hostile land as a result of lies and self-serving motives of this Administration.
I'm a combat Marine veteran of Viet Nam (1969) and was awarded two Purple Hearts for combat wounds for which I am very proud. For sure, my military service makes me no more or a less a "patriot" (whatever that word means anymore) than any other American. But, I relate it to you to encourage you to maintain what you're doin g by speaking out and don't back up an inch! I know there are many veterans like myself who appreciate you and your courage. And I especially appreciate the fact that you pray (and that you keep your clothes on, too, by the way.......not that I'm a prude or anything, but...well, you know).
Don't let Coulter get you down. Who knows......maybe the Lord has plans for you in Ann's life. God knows she needs something. Stay strong and good luck on your show. I'll be watching.
John Conley
Dear Lydia, Your email took my breath. Yes, we live in a strange world, Lydia. And I admire those of you with such national exposure (by the very definition of your career) speaking out from your heart, untainted by political pressures.
There are so many things I would like to express to you about the soldier's heart, but I don't want to take very much of your time. If you do happen to find some time, please go to http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heart/view/special.html and hear from other soldiers and Marines. These are clips of interviews with four veterans and I believe you will find them interesting and informative. I relate more to Jim Dooley and Viet Nam, but then again, though we are of different generations and different wars.....in ways most important we are all the same. Pray, Lydia, that God guides my memories and my words. Love, John
After my article was published, a Brad Blog commenter named Freedom Fan, asked me: "In your conversations with God Lydia, has he revealed to you when your life began? At what moment do you think all genetic information is in place to create a human life? Does God consider it a sin to intentionally snuff out innocent human life?"
My response: "When I got sober on Sept. 11, 11 years ago -- I experienced a string of catastrophic miracles, spine-tingling evidence of what I now call God in my life. Around this time I found my beloved younger brother's dead body, bloated and purple with lividity -- and I began my spiritual search. It became clear to me that flesh does not contain life. Life is spirit. And yes, I am absolutely sure of the answers to these questions. But I don't want to impose my discoveries on you without some background, and this is not the place. I have written extensively on life, love, death, faith and spirit -- and my own hilariously embarrassing adventures in spiritual growth.
For me the key is in Christ’s words and the meaning behind his parables. We are eternal and spiritual. And God is love. Love is an actual force, the creative force of the universe, more powerful than hate. Where you put your thoughts, there your heart is. If we were all to focus only on the GOOD in each other -- and return love for hate -- (very difficult to do, hence Christ's famous saying that the "gate is narrow") -- but if we could do this, we would create heaven on earth. It's here, we just can't see it, but some can when they change their perspective. (When we are all able to do this, to change our hearts, that is when I believe the "Second Coming" will happen. That's what Christ meant when he said that only he was the way to the Father: it is LOVE! And it's an inside job.) And in this expression, as a reflection of God, we come into form to express God’s qualities through man, His most glorious creative idea. Our natural state is joyous and childlike. And we are all in fact capable of doing what Christ did, we are supposed to be doing the healings he did. We are all the sons of God, made in God’s image, which is spiritual. You cannot kill spirit. So putting so much emphasis on the fetus or body as “life” is wrong to me. Now dont' get the wrong idea: I am against all killing, and I don't believe in partial-birth abortions. But not everyone in America subscribes to the belief that fetal cells prior to 8 weeks have consciousness or soul; and since we can't legislate religion in a free country where separation of church and state is a tenet of the Constitution - we have an obligation here. I also don't think Jesus wanted us to worship him, his flesh, his body so much -- he wanted us to acknowledge the Christ-truth within ALL of us. It's similar to when Jesus said not to focus on the "letter of the law, but the spirit." Soul, consciousness never dies, cannot be killed, is at-one-with God (atonement.) Is killing pro-life? Wars cause more damage to the families left fatherless, motherless and without their loved ones. We are here in this embodiment to learn to love and accept ourselves and transfer that love and acceptance to each other. Life is spiritual and eternal.
I feel God can be proved through science -- because love is a powerful force, an energy, and it's molecular. Anyway, there is no solid matter. Christ meant what he said when he said we could move a mountain with our faith. The problem is, we just don't believe it. If we did, we'd be walking through that metaphorical Gate. But all our doubts arrest God's work through us. Perfect Love casts out Fear, remember? I have had absolute transformative miracles through this kind of prayer; anyone can. Anyone can heal, for we must put our thoughts on the true spiritual essence of life, not the body. Beneath what is visible is the invisible where true power lies. It's like the software or inner language of a computer, beneath the surface. A great movie to rent to begin to understand in layman's terms this field of infinite possibilities is "What The BLEEP Do We Know". Also click on Google and type in "The Message in the Water" -- and read about a famous Japanese scientist's experiment in how our thoughts create everything. Anyway, my own personal journey (and horrific crash and burn) is coming out in a book soon. I was forced to find these answers on a very personal level. I explain this better in the book, and with more humor. Getting too serious lately. Just saw SYRIANA and GOOD NIGHT and GOOD LUCK. Two excellent movies.
More wrap up from 2005: This is from a BRADBLOG commenter named "Big K", who posted numerous comments on my article, and kept attacking me as a member of "the abortion party." I am getting sick of this; I have never even connected being a liberal with abortion! It's the furthest thing from my mind. This right-wing evangelical cabal invented this as a political smear campaign. There are so many wonderful things about the Democrats, which I will post in my next blog -- and no Democrat likes or wants abortions. Like Jimmy Carter, I am NOT pro-abortion and resent this bizarre right-wing obsession. To me, "liberal" means freedom loving, open-hearted, compassionate toward the poor, saving the earth and pro-LIFE in the ways that REALLY matter: we hate senseless death in any form, especially seeing our young bright soldiers killed and maimed (15,000 without legs and arms now) in a needless, corrupt war! If this war was to get rid of an evil despot and to save the poor Iraqi lives, then why didn't we go to Rwanda where the genocide was actually visible on a constant basis? Okay, so it was to fight terrorism. But the terrorists weren't even there at the start of the war. At least not the ones we were pursuing. Finally Big K explained to me: " What many of us have been saying here Lydia is you are just as liable for the “hate speech” you supposedly despise. Likening us to Nazi’s is not going to get me to see any point you have. (I never likened anyone to a Nazi; I simply pointed out that Coulter's "joking" about killing liberals is the same exact "joking tone" Hitler used when he as dehumanizing the Jews in the early propaganda days.) Then Big K goes on to say this: In Mosaic law, you should stone homosexuals since this is an abomination of nature" does not sound very liberal to me." First of all, I can't believe Big K believes Christ would have stoned a homosexual! Is that what he is saying? He lost me there.
Then a Democrat named Autarkis chimed in: "I can't imagine Christ taking a look at a secular leader taking his largest lifetime contributions from an outfit like Enron, which was the case for President Bush until just a couple years ago, and think that this was what he had in mind. Christ might be troubled to learn that the disparity between rich and poor in this country is growing at a staggering rate with no end in sight, and that Christians, at least the Fundamentalist ones, seem to celebrate this as the bounty of God when they're on the receiving end. But that's Ceasar's business. Maybe Christ wouldn't have given it much thought at all. He probably would be astounded to find that someone capable of mocking a prisoner begging for her life, (as Bush did to Carla Faye Tucker) called Christ his favorite philosopher. And then that this fellow launched wars, if not in his name, at least because he thought God put him in the Presidency to do this? And God's vicar, The Pope, tried to talk him out of one of them?"
posted by Lydia Cornell at 3:42 PM on Dec 31 2005
Worfeus said:
ReplyDelete" By turning a blind eye and a deaf ear, whitewashing the account so you can feel good about your faith, you facilitate these events".
Christians :(
Believe me when I say Worfeus, these self important, superior acting individuals, have partially contributed to my present faith.
Johnny moo moo
Worfeus said…
ReplyDelete“As far as your statement about early Christians actually asking for the Inquistion? LOL.
Sorry buddy, but this was an old, old argument that I heard back when I studied from a master at Catholic Universtity.
The Church has been pulling out that one for a long time, because there is evidence that some people who had difficult cases in secular court, (and usually knew they were guilty), asked for the Inquistion, some even acting like Heretics so they could escape the secular courts.
In fact, you likely either got this from your parish Priest or you took it right of www.catholic.com”
This is what I am disputing buddy. Only this. You claim that the church has pulled out a flawed argument based on some occurrence that did happen. I state that it is a chicken and the egg situation, that the Inquisition was in full force before this started to happen. If you have information to the contrary that does not amount to “hey, I said so” and sticking your tongue out, I have stated I would like to see it. I have produced proof. I just picked up the first random book I saw at the store and it happened to agree with my interpretation of the history of our subject. I can find more, since I got this information from more than conversations with people 20 years ago. But I find that not to be necessary.
I am not defending the atrocities of the Inquisition, I never did. I did say it started with good intentions, and it started with the people wanting the pope to do something about criminals using their faith against them. And I have said that some positive changes occurred. You have not proved otherwise.
We are in perfect agreement with the schmuckness of that individual reposting everything. Get in the discussion, or just read it, or leave. What was that supposed to accomplish?
ReplyDeleteActually Worfeus, I would never go that far, but, I did make an attempt at buying The New Testament this evening - I chickened out as I was to embarassed to buy it. :)
ReplyDeleteI simply want to analyze the balance of it. You know very well what I need and thats a visit from someone .... He is always welcome. :D
Johnny moo moo
atheist
This was a used book store and the first one I picked up was 50 bucks. :| Eventually I found a small, cool looking one for 10. However, I simply did not have the courage to present it to the teller for fear he might think I was a Christian or something.
ReplyDeleteIm just going to use Lil Miss moo moo next time. She can do my dirty work :}
Johnny moo moo
Thanks for your help Worf, I will check this out. I am genuinely interested.
ReplyDeleteJohnny moo moo
Sorry i hijacked the thread earlier, but i was just hoping for some opinions on the fear that is being promoted by this administration as well as the similarities between the Star Wars epic
ReplyDeleteBut getting back to your inquisition thread i'm ashamed to admit that I know absolutely nothing about the inquisition,so all the current talk is kind of right over my head, Worfeus, or anyone else that is knowlegable, would you mind giving me a Short 1 paragraph summary of what went on in the inquisition and approximately what time period it spanned,
thanks
Mike
Agreed, I dont respect the spam either, i'm new to blogs, this is actually my first blog site, how long has it been up and running.
ReplyDeleteMike
The points we agree on continued. The dates, and the torture methods and that the church was using them early. That such things are bad, and the church screwed the pooch plenty.
ReplyDeleteThe things we seam not to agree on, as I can tell at this point.
The purpose, and original intent of the Inquisition. That the church was blocked from most of the proceedings in the Spanish Inquisition, since the king barred their influence.
That the Inquisition of the Middle Ages and the Spanish Inquisition are two separate instances, one obviously influenced by the other, but distinctly different. (Believe it or not, I never saw the Monty Python comedy you describe. I know, what kind of nerd do I think I am. But it is true, that is not were I got more acquainted with the history of it.)
Also, our numbers are different as to how many were tortured and killed. As I posted earlier, John Vidmar said the numbers thrown around are generally inflated. But I admit that his numbers are still pretty nasty.
And our fundamental difference, that the clergy and the church is not all bad. The sins of the church hundreds of years ago, though horrible to not render the whole body as worthy of the trash bin. Even the sins of current priests and bishops does not. They have free will, they are able to make a choice of evil as any of us can. The church cannot stop that, any more than a company can make sure that an employee they did not know was unbalanced will not do something stupid some day.
If liberals were as tolerant as they like to think they are, they would not allow such prejudice on the basis of religion. I can not tell you how many times I mentioned I am a Catholic and all of the sudden get all the bad jokes and stupid questions about how when the last time I was groped by a priest. I have known hundreds of priests in my lifetime, lots of nuns (I have an aunt that is, as a matter of fact) and brothers. I have never, ever seen the misconduct you hear of in the news. I know it happens, but I know it is the vast minority. Other religions have these same problems. There was a parade in Utah disrupted by a group of Mormon youths recently who allege their church has suppressed their grievances on the subject of sexual misconduct. The Episcopalians, and Presbyterians have as well. For some reason, Catholics are all I see in the news. I have never understood why that is.
One correction. Cervantes was jailed, but according to my book, sitting in front of me, no one knows why. It may have been Inquisition related, but according to this it was more than likely due to “disorderliness in his accounts. For after his release, he was in difficulty again with his superiors…” Also, “When he proved unable to submit receipts for all official moneys he had collected, though no charge of dishonesty was proved, he was again committed to jail.” He was dismissed from public service after being released from jail the second time. This according to my Encyclopedia Britannica copy of Don Quixote. I am still looking for that passage we discussed. Give me a day or so there.
Good night people. See you tomorrow.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteOne thing before I sleep. Everyone has an “axe to grind,” myself and Worfeus included. My recommendation if you are interested in learning about the Inquisitions, or anything else for that matter, read books. Read a few on the subject if you can, from a couple of different view points. Then come to your own conclusions. A blog is not a good place to get information on this, and, buy the way, neither is the History Channel on religious topics. I will not get into that tonight, but they are a bit skewed as well. Books, and check the credentials of the authors.
I just checked back here and was shocked to find that some troll reposted all of the blog! Please don't ever do that again.
ReplyDeleteMike -- I agree with you about Star Wars. Love that movie. Will have to look into it.
Worf -- I commend you for your scholarly brilliance; you did a lot of hard work to be of service to people here (and I know you get aggravated).
Big K -- why do you believe other people, and not someone who is a scholar and actually knows everything in all these books?
Joan of Arc was burned at the stake because the Church could not accept that she had direct messages from God, that was beyond evil. WE ALL can and should speak directly to God, for the kingdom of heaven is within us. It's not outside of us, there is no big anthropomorphic God judging us. There is no evil outside of what is created by man.
God is all good, all creative, not destructive. Anyone can access God's power directly -- and religion often gets in the way. Christ was a very simple man. Many churches have completely twisted his message for ulterior motives of greed and control over poor people. But God forgives and loves and welcomes EVERYONE. Our soul's growth is all that matters. And it doesn't matter if you're Hindu, atheist, gay, Buddhist, or a Druid -- you are one of God's children. We are all going to be in heaven -- as long as we LOVE ONE ANOTHER, LOVE OUR ENEMIY AND OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELF -- not technically declare Jesus as your savior!! You have to abide in love; that is the way, the truth and the life. The Crusades and the Inquisition and the horrid priests did great evil and it should not be forgotten so easily. xoxo
And that is why the Gate is narrow: very few can love their enemies, not fight back and turn the other cheek. But as Christians, that is what we are called to do. We will not see the Second Coming -- which is when our hearts are so full of love that LOVE is all we see -- until we can love our fellow man this way.
ReplyDeleteJohnny Moo Moo -- it's not any big mystery really. There is magic in the air when you help others, take care of your own side of the street -- and just trust Love to lead the way. Doors open, jobs happen, people become nicer, accidents are averted. We (our stubborness and ego) get in our own way.
ReplyDeleteThe best Christ-based authors I've ever read are: Emmett Fox "The Sermon on the Mount", "Alter Your Life", "Power Through Constructive Thinking";
Mary Baker Eddy: "Science & Health with Key to the Scriptures"; Wayne Dyer "You'll See it When you BELIEVE IT" . And my favorite author is Anne Lamott. Her personal memoir "TRAVELING MERCIES" about how she found God has you laughing and crying on the same page.
Please pray for the miners' families. It's the living that need strength.
looks like the blog was reposted several times
ReplyDeleteMike
Lydia,
ReplyDeleteI have not heard Worfeus’ credentials other than he studied in college. What degree does he hold? How has he used it? The source I mentioned was a PhD in History and a college professor. Not a light reference. And as I mentioned, it was the first book I picked up, and it happened to agree totally with what I had been saying. Worfeus has studied, so have I, but I think since he has an opinion that happens to agree with yours then you take his reading over mine.
Worfeus, I did quote directly out of the book I mentioned, and it was not a Catholic Apologist, but Encyclopedia Britannica Books. I have owned it for years, it was not another jaunt to the bookstore. I own hundreds of books. And I even read them. Most do not even have any pictures. I know that is hard to believe, a conservative that reads stuff like Chaucer, Dickens, Homer, and the like. But we exist. As stated yesterday, the book in question is over 700 pages long, and the reference I am talking about was one passage in it. It will take time, but if I can not find what I am looking for I will retract the statement. That should satisfy you.
I am not taking anyone's side Big K -- I'm just confused as to what you are trying to say. I always take the side of truth, and we all know deep inside, what the truth is, don't we? When we strip away all ulterior motives, defenses and manipulations -- and communicate on a level of trying to understand each other, as in the Francis of Assissi prayer: "Grant that I may understand rather than be understood " (in other words, really try to see the other person's point of view) we would all get along better in this world, even with people we can't fathom, such as extremist Muslimns. Everyone thinks they're the good guy; even Hitler thought he was a good guy. Great evil is often justified -- but when you look at one's underlying motives people are usually trying to shore up a shaky ego, keep up a fragile facade, keep what they've got (hence the fear mentality of 'us against them') or not lose what they have. Very few of us operate from the KNOWING that God is really taking care of us and we should take care of each other to please Him.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, I struggle everyday with my ego -- if I'm doing anything out of pride, I really suffer for it. I can be the biggest jerk, but I have to see my part in every argument. If I'm upset over anything, no matter what someone did to me -- I only have control over myself and my own attitude. Peace will happen only when I stop expecting other people to change and work on myself.
ReplyDeleteThe 12-steps are the most miraculous program of spiritual growth. In fact, they are the quickest way to conscious contact with the Source of all Life.
My purpose here is to offer facts. Worfeus’ facts I never disputed, but what I did say is there is more to the story than he is presenting. It is good to know the atrocities of the Inquisition and others, but to overlook how it began is to overlook how it can happen again. So, when he says “who cares how it started” it shows a fundamental flaw in his logic. How did it end? Is that not important as well? The church was not forced by way of arms to end the practice. To simply cast the people behind it as pure evil and the entire system corrupt for all eternity is unfair, in my opinion. And to blind yourself to the history of the thing and only advance a partial truth is also unfair.
ReplyDeleteA quick aside. During this conversation I have been reminded of another one I had with a friend and colleague at work. He is a black man, and we were talking about the Civil War. I mentioned something about black Confederate soldiers and he called me a liar to my face. When I proved that they existed he dismissed them as ignorant. I charged him that he may be. And he was robbed of the history of his people. If that were me I would be quite interested why someone would fight and die for the service of the South. I would be mad that the story of those people, his people, was kept from me, and that the memory of those who sacrificed were deliberately forgotten. He wanted nothing to do with it at first, but has on his own discovered more. His understanding has increased, and that is a good thing. The facts of history are not biased. They are also not subject to interpretation. They simply are. We can interpret the impact, but only with true, complete knowledge of the facts. That is why I continued this conversation.
Happy New Year to you also Ms. Cornell. I consider you a worthy, albeit misguided opponent.
ReplyDeleteLydia,i'm really looking forward to reading your books, because as far as you having an ego or being a jerk, I havent seen it in the brief time i've been visiting this site, in fact I think its great that you take the time out of your busy schedule to interact with fans/bloggers post personal pics as well as stand up for what you believe in. You must really be under alot of pressure to get those books done, I hope this board is serving as away to relax and release some presure when your taking a break from writing rather than an obligation to respond that adds more pressure. I can remember when i was working full time to put myself through college and grad school and was working like 90-100 hours a week and the little Internet and movie breaks helped me release the pressure and keep my sanity.
ReplyDeletei'm really glad I discovered this board lots of really cool, bright and interesting people particularly you and Worf.
Mike
Cool Picture of gandalf freedom Fan, i'm a Lord of The Rings Fanatic
ReplyDeleteMike
Big K said:
ReplyDelete"To simply cast the people behind it as pure evil and the entire system corrupt for all eternity is unfair".
Worfeus is not implying this. He is merely saying that if we are to learn from our past, we have to be perfectly honest with it.
Also, Worfeus finds it odd that you mentioned some good may have come out of the inquisition - Bad Example.
It would be like me saying some good came out of the Einsatzgruppen SS. I suggest Princess Diana and her efforts would be a more appropriate example of finding good.
Nevertheless, I am sure there are many Catholics/Christians who do very fine work all over the world.
A true Christian, in my eyes, is someone like Kwai Chang Cane. He lurks the planet with few earthly possessions helping others.
Johnny moo moo
atheist
P.S. I agree with your 12:08 PM post.
Cool Picture of gandalf Freedom Fan, i'm a Lord of The Rings Fanatic
ReplyDelete-Mike
Thanks Mike. Happy New Year to you.
Lydia said:
ReplyDelete..."and just trust love to lead the way".
How can I trust love to lead the way when it didnt work for the very pure and lovely Anne Frank? Instead she suffered a slow, agonizing death at Belsen.
Johnny moo moo
Worfeus: Chicken........NOT!
ReplyDelete30 years of reading war has allowed me to see into the abyss :| When one studies war they are in effect studying ,religion , politics, human nature, and psychology.
I hear ya Worf, but, there is a bigger picture here as there are billions of people who need to define day to day?
Johnny moo moo
Johnny moo moo,
ReplyDeleteWorfeus is not implying the church is evil and corrupt, he actually said it outright.
“If you are comfy with a Church whose history is full of blood, murder, corruption, vice, torture, and whose current claim to fame is not feeding the Children, but f@#%!$ng the children, then cool, that's your gig.”
He repeatedly said the church is corrupt in his posts, and when I mentioned that there exists charity and piety he dismissed it.
Worfeus, you are an interesting individual. You simultaneously get upset for perceived transgressions on you while directly attacking me as dense, “DUMB is forever,” and such. I have not intentionally insulted you. Ever. Not once. If I did, you would know it, as I would come right out and say it. there would be no need to read between the lines.
I mentioned a few times that I am at work when posting, and when I did not post fast enough you chide me as sitting back and crying at your argument unable to retort. When I try to post faster you tell me I did not give enough dates. I do not know what you do, but I work for a living full time, part time engineering student, and have a sick wife at home. If my information does not include the level of minute detail, sorry, I do not have that much time to devote to it. This is not a put off, I have stated much of that already. It is simply the fact of my life.
As far as my dismissing your responses with the “ease of mindless 18 year old, tossing her credit card bill in the garbage can without bothering to read it” ( a phrase you have an odd liking for) consider this. I mentioned the beginnings of the Inquisition as stated in the book I mentioned yesterday and prior to that, you simply say “Sorry buddy, but this was an old, old argument that I heard back when I studied from a master at Catholic Universtity.” That is it. A discussion, years ago. That is your supporting data. I then asked for a book, on this since it was such prevent knowledge and you declined.
As to your dates and names, I said before, I will say it again. No dispute. Get a cookie for yourself. What else do you want?
On the issue of the of our dispute on the timeframe of the Inquisition. I admit to have assumed the Spanish Inquisition, and did put forth dates and names myself. I assumed this since the Spanish Inquisition is generally what people talk about. That torture techniques were used on heretics very early on is common knowledge. What you did not point out well was that there was much, loud opposition to that practice since the beginning also. But, the practice ensued anyway. Fine. Get another cookie, I agreed with you.
I disagreed with you that it continued with into the 1900’s and every historian I have read agrees with me on that one. I said that since the office of the Inquisition still existed meant nothing to prove your point, and I stand by that. The formal end of all periods known as the Inquisition ended in the 1800’s. In your study of the church you should know that she always keeps some remnants of the past as part of tradition. The office still existing does not constitute an era.
I did say the Inquisition had a legitimate beginning. Rampant thefts, frauds, and at the worst encouragement to suicide seam to me to be good reasons for the church to do something. You have not produced one iota of proof to the contrary. I said good came from it. I admit to not making that point. Some of the reason for this may lie in the fact I spent a lot of time, I mean a lot of time, telling you that you were right on your facts, I am not trying to hurt your very fragile feelings, and this or that is not what I meant or said. You say you are done with this. If you would like I can make a case there, otherwise you can claim I missed that one, and I did.
You may have forgotten more than I ever knew, but I tried to show something different that you missed in this discussion. I think you knew much of what I said. I am positive you do. But, you are more interested in making the church unequivocally bad. Any discussion to the contrary will not sway your resolve. I am convinced of that now. Your problem is not ignorance, as I have repeatedly mentioned. I now think it is outright malice. With that mindset, you are not a good resource, no matter what you know.
In my references I did give a book and author. If I could not post chapter and verse I gave a trail for the curious to follow. When I asked you earlier for a book, you sent me on a wild goose chase. None of your books pertained directly to the subject at hand. When I pointed that out you dismissed it also, like an 18 year old…….
On the subject of history. I am an analytical person. Facts are facts. They are absolute. Napoleon lost at Waterloo. Louis Pasteur discovered microorganisms cause disease. There is no debating this. There is debate over the impact of these. When not all the facts are known we may debate the subject. Did Troy exist? Did the battle described in Homers epics and others really happen? But in the case of the Inquisition, much of this is documented. Debate of the facts is useless, as it can simply be looked up. Again, this is why you found no resistance to your dates. There is none. You get another cookie.
Worfeus - I would prefer to wait for a response from Lydia....then I will elaborate.
ReplyDeleteBy all means, feel free to debate Big K if you wish in the meantime.
Johnny moo moo
Johnny, I have to agree with Worfeus, the question is obviously directed to Lydia, and its hers to answer.
ReplyDeletebut in my opinion what she is saying is not to respond to hatred with hatred. if someone attacks her personally she's saying that there is really no point in responding with a hateful bitter reply because the other person is not going to come around to her way of thinking anyway and it is far more enjoyable and productive to spend your time in loving kind and helpful ways rather than bitter and hateful ways.
I dont think she is advocating looking the other way and doing nothing though, in fact this blog is about educating people in a kind loving way to what is really going on, all evil generally starts with a fair cloak and noble purpose (at least in their mind), before they seize power and turn irredeemably to the path of evil. Hitler was a prime example, he just didnt start killing people he slowly manipulated and brainwashed people till he seized ultimate power and there was nobody to oppose him, then the fair cloak came off and he did as he pleased and attempted to exterminate his enemies. I think Lydia is attempting to shine the light of reason into the dark place we are going and expose some of the manipulations in a kind peaceful way similar, to MLK, because its always easier to stop evil in the early stages before it seizes ultimate power.
that being said I think anyone, including Lydia or MLK would not hesitate to defend themselves or their family if their lives were at stake, or would definately take action to prevent a tragedy if it were in their power, but the point here is to make an effort to educate the people with open minds in a kind loving way BEFORE its too late, and I think thats exactly what she is trying to do.
Mike
Mike - Sorry I didnt get back to ya. My computer was acting very funny. Had to reboot twice. Windows was downloading some kind of update, other problems etc...
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I appreciate what your saying and thanx, however, Lydia very kindly provided me with some "from the heart" advice" and I would very much prefer to hear an answer from her.
Johnny moo moo
Don't blame you a bit Johnny, I first discovered this site on New Years, and i've been poking around reading different blogs every day and it seems Lydia is saying similar things to what i've been saying, she just says them much much better, dont blame you a bit for valuing her opinion.
ReplyDeleteMike
Mike -- that was beautifully said, thank you. You are completely right.
ReplyDeleteAnd Freedom Fan -- thank you for the picture of Gandalf and Happy New Year. I too am a LORD OF THE RINGS FANATIC!! Have the original box-set trilogy from college.
Johnny Moo Moo -- I will get back to you after one good night of sleep. My kids need homework help and we just had a blackout in our neighborhood. No one in this house seems to be able to function without electronics, but to me it's the universe's way of getting our attention so we can focus on each other. So we lit candles and played charades.
Will answer your Anne Frank conundrum and philosophical questions to the best of my ability, from the heart very soon. Also there is an AMAZING BOOK called "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl -- a man who overcame concentration camp torture through the power of his mind (by putting his thoughts on love, his love for his missing wife). He was so focused on love -- and on seeing the love within his captors (to me this is like seeing the Christ within each man) he literally was untouchable, no one hurt him. (Look him up on the web.)
Thank you - I think you are all incredibly deep and thoughtful people to debate each other on the big questions of life. I think we could really help each other this way. Big K, Worf, Mike, Johnny Moo Moo, Anonymous times 7, Freedom Fan, Drewl, James W, Troll, Eric, Steve ... And give my love to Little Miss Moo Moo. Sweet dreams. More later xoxo
Mike - I didn't mean you were right about me, but about your earlier post explaining how we feel!
ReplyDeleteTolkien even echoes the concept that most things are not wholly evil in the beginning when he states in the Silmarillion and in Morgoth's Ring that even Sauron was not wholly evil in the beginning, he goes on to state that Sauron after the end of the first age and the overthrow of his master Morgoth wanted to provide order and direction and rebuild the devastion, until he got consumed by power and exerting his will over others. he then became a tyrant just like his master whose sole desire was to dominate and enslave others and destroy their free will.
ReplyDeleteAs for Lord of The Rings, i've read Lord of The Rings at least 20 times as well as all of the other Tolkien books like Silmarillion, unfinished Tales, and just about all of The History of Middle Earth Series. Theres quite a few people i'd love to meet and spend an afternoon with, (Lydia included) but if there was one person i'd love to meet it would have to be JRR Tolkien, i'd ask him so many Questions he'd be hoarse and wouldnt be able to talk when I was done. Too bad he wasnt still alive today it would have even been cool to write him letters or blogs like this. In fact come to think of it I think i'm going to buy the Tolkien letters (a book of fans writing letters to him and tolkien answering them)
Thought i'd change the subject to something I know a little more about since I know very little about the inquisition, although i'm learning more and more thanks to Worfeus, Lydia and Big K
Mike
I knew what you meant, it was clear
ReplyDeleteMike
I admit, I did skim your first post about the Inquisition. You have skimmed, and admitted it. After that I assumed. You and I can debate whether a lifelong Catholic knew his Catholic history all night long. It will boil down to yeah huh, and nuh uh pretty quick though.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Cervantes quote is concerned, fine, two days no quote, your trying to end the discussion, I feel like going to bed, I retract the statement. You got me. I can not read that fast. Hard as I try.
Why not do me the same favor now? You got your information from a book. Which one? I know there is one. At least one in there. Like I said, your previous books were a goose chase. You did not think I would really look it up. I am not that lazy. I said I would read it, give it to me. No one could have studied that stuff decades ago and remembered all that detail, so I know you looked it up somewhere.
And talk about not reading posts, no one belittled the horrors of anything here. Not that I saw. You accused me of it. For someone who acts like a kid who just dropped their ice cream every time you think I said something between the lines, you are pretty quick to jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth. And then you ignore when I clarify again what I meant. You call it “New Yorker sarcasm.” I call it low brow.
And last. If you are so interested in debate, I gave you at least one good point and backed it up. The Inquisition started with good intentions. I gave facts, supported by one expert I named. I do not recall a single name for your sources, just dates and historical names no one contested. You have dismissed my point as old, dumb, taken from an apologist, and talking about moral logic. But you have not shown me wrong in the facts, and I know from your study I am not the first to bring up those points. Give it to me, tell me how I am wrong, or concede that I am factual in my presentation in that point at least.
And your imbecilic argument that we are blogging to keep atrocities from history from happening again is so pathetic if I did not think you were serious I would have laughed out loud. A bunch of admitted nerds typing on the internet did not stop Rwanda and is not stopping Darfur now. And even were that true you will not get anywhere without information getting out. I tried to flesh out the history of our discussion. You tossed it aside like so much refuse on the basis that basically, no one needed to know that because you said so. Nice.
My family in Florida (particularly the ones with children) echoed your comments about how cool it was to relax and just spend time together without work and all the electronic destractions when the power was out for about 4 days after the hurricaine in October.
ReplyDeleteAs for my comment about you, hope I didnt offend you in any way, I wasnt trying to say I know you better than you know yourself or dont belive what you say, it was meant in a strictly positive way, I just meant that you seem like a really nice person, and in the brief time i've been coming to this site I dont see you as having an ego or being a jerk, and am curious to read your book to see what you are refering to and learn more.
Mike
"Christ might be troubled to learn that the disparity between rich and poor in this country is growing at a staggering rate with no end in sight, and that Christians, at least the Fundamentalist ones, seem to celebrate this as the bounty of God when they're on the receiving end."
ReplyDelete-Autarkis
While Ms. Cornell asserts that Liberals like her and Autarkis are really the uber-Christians, she embraces Autarkis who implies that Christians are essentially the same as the Conservatives. In truth it is the Liberals who endless bash Christians and have erected and flail at a bogeyman called the "Religious (Christian) Right". The irony is not lost on the reader capable of critical thinking.
"It is...not democracy, which we are now attempting to spread to the world. The 'war on terror' is not about terror, and it is not about democracy. It is a struggle between those who accept responsibility for their own fates and those who refuse to do so; those who work to make their own future better and those who blame their failure on others. The reason one group is rich and the other poor is that the rich group made themselves rich and the poor group refuse to even try. The wealth gap is a result of the difference, not the actual difference. It is a symptom, not ultimately a cause.
The terrorists do not lash out at us violently because they are poor; they do so because we succeed where they fail."
-Steven DenBeste
This is the same fundamental reason liberals continually lash out against Conservatives: envy, laziness and greed. This is the same reason that they identify with and coddle our islamist enemies as well as common criminals. The mindset is identical.
True "Christians" and other Conservatives rarely if ever "celebrate failure" which results from this cult of victimhood; on the contrary they are optimists who celebrate, encourage, and reward success.
Liberals like Ms. Cornell hypocritically lament "wealthy corporate CEOs taking huge bonues" while remaining silent about themselves, their lawyer buddies, sports heros and movie star friends whose wealth makes all others pale in comparison.
Conservatives consistently celebrate these and all achievers who become wealthy by enriching the lives of common folks.
Thank you Worfeus for reposting my comments. I now see why you insist on me doing it. It is kind of nice to see yourself in print in some one else’s post. Nice boost to the ego.
ReplyDeleteYou, interestingly, only commented yourself on one bit of fact from my posts. That was the Vidmar quote. I am glad you eventually looked him up, as that was my original intention. I wanted to see if you were paying attention. Good stuff. The “well known apologist” thing is irrelevant. Are his facts wrong? You have not contested that. And you may recall when I posted that I was saying I wanted a book a seminarian would read. Since he teaches at a Catholic college, that requirement seams to be perfectly met. It was the first book I picked up. I was delighted that it fit my qualifications so perfectly. However, if I had seen a book that was titled, “Kevin You are a Big Stupid Head and Worfeus Has You on the Ropes” I would like to think I am man enough to admit it. Subsequent trips to the store have not yielded any different information than I posted.
Your voluminous repost of my comments show how many times I kept telling you I did not say the atrocities of the Inquisition were a good thing, or that people were looking for death by the church in interesting ways. You said I implied people cried for the rack, and said I should put my kids on one and grab some wine. You put words in my mouth and deliberately twisted my comments. I seam to have missed your point of reposting here. Maybe I am that dumb, maybe I need some coffee this morning, or maybe you did not make one. In any case, please explain.
You may now say I did insult you. Calling your insults low brow and your argument imbecilic were things I thought about for a while before posting. I am tired of your barbs and deliberate misinterpretations acting as they are true argument for your cause. In almost 300 posts I never barred teeth, does not mean I do not have them. And I will put them away if you can keep yourself at least fairly civil.
Freedom Fan -- You couldn't be more WRONG and more biased. It makes me sad that you think like this.
ReplyDeleteYou say, " In truth it is the Liberals who endlessly bash Christians and have erected and flail at a bogeyman called the "Religious (Christian) Right". The irony is not lost on the reader capable of critical thinking."
Whoever you think I am bashing, these people are certainly not Christians. They may call themselves Christian, but they are tragically misguided souls.
Pat Robertson said that Ariel Sharon had a stroke because it was "divine intervention." Pat Robertson should be committed to a mental institution -- or at least should not be on the public airwaves. Nor should Ann Coulter. They can blog, but they should not have a national TV forum. People across the world are getting a pretty twisted impression of America by these two hateful liars and pessimists.
In fact, Pat Robertson should be committed to a mental institution. And Ann Coulter said that the Golden Rule is just an "incidental tenet of Christianity." (She is a PESSIMIST, a cynic (one who "pees on people's dreams. In ancient Greece, Cynics urinated on works of art. ) Coulter admits she "loves to hate". She talks about the glee she gets from hatred. "It motivates her." Some optimist.
Have you ever read the 4 Gospels -- Christ's actual words? It is the CORE of Christ's teaching. There is nothing else: "Love your neighbor as yourself; don't ever fight your enemies, return love for hate. Bless those who persecute you. Resist NOT evil.
These people, are the furthest thing from Christians I have ever heard of. But they use the name "Christian" to get across a self-serving agenda and declare war and live in fear of enemies. Call it anything you like, but don't call it Christian.
We are supposed to be an advanced nation. We are supposed to know that you can't fight fire with fire. What good are we if we go down to their primitive level - the level of the Islamist extremists who never stop fighting, or the level of the Old Testament's "an-eye-for-an-eye"? Throughout thousands of years, has it gotten them anywhere? Sharon actually had a revelation and started to realize he needed to STOP pushing the Palestinians off the land. The right-wingers both here and in Israel want him dead because they don't really want peace; they selfishly can't let down their pride and ever give an inch. And as for Pat Robertson's sick, evil statement: he wants WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST to continue until Armageddon, and ultimately he wants the annihilation of Israel -- in order to bring the blood bath of a vicious Second Coming based on some wacko's interpretation of Revelation that is false, dangerous and self-serving. WAKE UP!!
You are completely wrong to say: "This is the same fundamental reason liberals continually lash out against Conservatives: envy, laziness and greed. This is the same reason that they identify with and coddle our islamist enemies as well as common criminals. The mindset is identical."
How dare you say that any American CODDLES OUR ISLAMIST ENEMIES? This is what's wrong with our political discourse: people like you who have a mindset that all people fall into one of two categories. This breeds the kind of hatred that brings down nations. You don't know me. I am a freedom-loving, hard-working mother of two sons and a follower of Christ. I have never taken anything for granted and I LOVE my country more than anyone I know.
I was in Beirut right before the first suicide attack on our Marines. My father died in Holland, where we lived for awhile. We were never rich, my father was a violinist, a Russian immigrant who grew up in Shanghai, a White Russian -- against the Communists. I have been around the world and have studied history -- and wouldn't live anywhere but America. My father got his citizenship when I was 4 years old and he was so in love with America because it gave him opportunities unheard of in China when the communists took over.
I have a special dislike of dictatorships and fascism. I studied Stalin and Hitler and wrote a book about the evils of Stalin. You probably don't know this, but the atmosphere in the government was very similar to what's going on here - in early Nazi Germany. Don't laugh.
Coulter once pretended the religious right didn't exist, then contradicted herself. Ralph Reed, Abramoff, Falwell, Bush, Pat Roberson -- they exist and they are pushing us into war in the Middle East for reasons that are bizarre. They are also very strange brand of Christians. (See the Inquisition.)
Your theory that conservatives are optimists and liberals are pessimists is not only wrong, but idiotic. And by the way, don't ever put me in a box. I am only on the side of love and truth. It's easy to tell the difference: love expands the heart, softens misery, helps others. Many people on this earth are not as smart as you, or as strong. We are to take care of the "least among us" according to Christ. I don't mean the lazy people who refuse to work. Welfare to excess doesn't work. I mean we need free national HEALTH CARE, higher minimum wage for TEACHERS, FIREFIGHTERS, POLICE AND SOLDIERS. Afer-school programs to get kids off the streets. More love, more compassion. More incentive to work for things that really matter.
Worfeus,
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. Vidmar’s degree is in theology, not history. He “lectured extensively on church history at the Smithsonian Institute” according to the book jacket and somehow on my walk back that turned into a history degree. I apologize for the misinformation, it was not intentional. I just went back to double check that before my shift starts this morning. That should teach me. I should have bought the book but it is 20 bucks, and I have better things to do with that money. Like buy some wine to drink while torturing kids.
Seems is spelled "seems" not "seams."
ReplyDeleteBit K -- Not to change the subject what illness does your wife have? Is she okay?
ReplyDeleteLydia,
ReplyDeleteThank you for asking. She has a pretty mean cold, but she is alright. She got it from me, it put me down for a few weeks, actually. She is going back to work now, so she will be alright. The doctor prescribed some weird cough medicine that contracts her lungs and makes her drowsy. So, she was pretty sleepy all the time and walking across the room was enough to put her out of breath. Obviously driving was a no-no. So, I was cooking a lot of soup for her for a few days. Good thing I am a pretty darn good cook, if I may say so myself. (Hence the Big in Big K ).
Hey Worfeus,
ReplyDeleteAre you making a point, or are you spamming. At this point there is nothing new in that last post of yours and I am beginning to wonder.
And your quote from Bertrand Russell this morning is interesting. You seam pretty sure of yourself.
Lydia,
ReplyDeleteOne thing about your post earlier to FF. Pat Robertson is an idiot. You will not find to much vehement opposition to that statement anywhere except the real weirdoes. As much as you and I do not seam to see eye to eye, know that I have never watched more than a few seconds of the 700 Club total in my entire life.
Ok Steve and Freedom Fan, I’ve been meaning to write about what I feel is going on
ReplyDeleteeconomically, as well as people who constantly stand in judgement of others and use labels or
stereotypes to define or portray a diverse group of people as the same or as having the same
views, and your responses gave me the perfect opportunity to do it.
First you compare “wealthy corporate CEO’s taking huge bonus’ and stock options to wealthy
movie stars, sports heros and lawyers, and while I agree with you that both are making exorbitant
amounts of money, there is one fundamental difference that somewhat justifies what the movie
stars, lawyers and sports heros are making and that difference is freewill, my reasoning for this is
this, people have a choice in what these people get paid, if no one thinks an actor should get paid
30 million a movie, then its up to us not to go see their movies, then I guarantee this actors salary
will go down, same goes for the lawyer no one is holding a gun to anyone’s head to hire that
particular lawyer for the price he is asking and if no one hired him then guess what he would
lower his price, same for sports heros, sports is a business no GM or team owner would pay a
sport star’s salary if they didn’t feel he would generate the fan interest to justify it. Ahh now
here’s a good question who decides corporate CEO’s salaries, yeah that’s right, they set their own
salaries, and what have their salaries done over the last 30 or so years, they’ve gone up
exponentially that’s what, while the average working class person’s salary has stagnated or gone
down. As unbelievable as this sounds stockholders who actually own the company have no say in
what these guys are making (I should know, I’m a stockholder in many companies) You say you
celebrate achievers then what would you say to a CEO who did an absolutely unequivocally
horrible job yet reaped millions in stock options while many of the working class employees were
either laid of or took salary cuts, is this fair? Also how about the CEO’s of successful companies
where the CEO’s and other top executives have awarded themselves hundreds of millions in stock
options and the workers, the one’s who actually broke their backs to make the company
successful haven’t seen a raise in 5-10 years, do you think this is fair? Doesn’t everyone deserve
to share in a company’s success, not just the privileged few? I find it utterly ridiculous to
attribute the success of a company to one person, and so do they obviously since they don’t seem
to think its JUST their fault when the company does poorly. Having CEO’s in charge of their own
compensation is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house, their saying trust me I won’t kill
you, just like our leaders are saying “TRUST US we’re taking away some of your personal
freedoms and civil liberties, but its for your own good, and we won’t abuse our power honest”
You also say that “the reason one group is rich and the other is poor is that the rich group made
themselves rich and the poor group refuses to even try” Hogwash, while I will conceded that
many visionaries who built their company from nothing through years of extremely hard work and
personal sacrifice should be commended, same goes for the doctors lawyers etc who broke their
backs to put themselves through school and build up their careers, actors and athletes also must
sacrifice, in the early years they are on the road a lot away from their families and must work
through injuries and personal problems, I would say there are far more people who simply
inherited their money or got where they are today through “connections” or who they know not
what they know. The deck is stacked against the poor and lower middle class and the “working
poor” is increasing while the middle class is shrinking, look at the debt burden college students are
graduating with, there is no way their standard of living will compare to their parents, and that’s
not even considering the fact that 30 years ago all it took was one working parent to lead a
comfortable middle class existence, whereas today it is almost a requirement for both parents to
work just to make endsmeet.
Also looking back at history, two of the most prominent factors that cause a depression are
uneven distribution of wealth, with the wealthy getting richer and the poor getting poorer, and
excessive debt, both of which we have today, factor in rising interest rates which will make that
debt even more difficult to pay off and things arent looking too good today. What does our
benevolent administration do they give us Tax Cuts that are not only clearly and insultingly a sop
to the rich, but misguided, I don’t even remember what I did with my tax cut refund, that’s how
much it meant to me and in fact I would rather have seen it go towards reducing the deficit. Think
of all the wonderful things we could do with that money like education assistance (not loans but
actual assistance), as well as national health coverage and insurance for everyone. Also who does
our president appoint as the new Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben “Helicopter” Bernake a
man who claims his method to fight deflation is to drop money out of helicopters, while he meant
this figuratively rather than literally, what he was saying is that our deficits our ballooning and we
owe a ton of money to foreigners and rather than allowing a depression or severe recession to
take hold he would crank up the printing presses and use inflation to destroy savers and the
middle class so we can pay back our debts with worthless dollars. Hitler used this same tactic
when he was seizing power. As for liberals being greedy, look who is calling the kettle black,
Conservatives are the epitome of greed, they want to seize more and more of the pie without
leaving any scraps or crumbs for the poor. Looking back at history two major reasons for the
decline and fall of Rome was their turning their backs on the poor and wasting and squandering all
of their resources in petty wars. Two things that are clearly happening today as well.
Conservatives claim to be good Christians that actually care about people, lets call a spade a
spade your philosophy is more along the lines of Scrooge’s “why don’t the poor hurry up and die
already to decrease the surplus population”
Mike
Ahhhh.......Lydia, you have discovered my weakness. Thank you for sending your (gulp) ummmm...love to Lil Miss moo moo - she says hello:]
ReplyDeleteLook forward to your response and understand its not an easy question.
Johnny moo moo
P.S. Stay frosty!
Hey Mike,
ReplyDelete"I’ve been meaning to write about what I feel is going on
economically, as well as people who constantly stand in judgement of others and use labels or
stereotypes to define or portray a diverse group of people as the same or as having the same
views, and your responses gave me the perfect opportunity to do it."
Nice judgements, labels and stereotypes.....
Must be OK when YOU do it...
Lydia, I agree 100% that teachers, firefighters and our military should be receiving much higher pay. I had the privilege of working with quite a few of our soldiers aiding Hurricaine Katrina victims and they were wonderful people, I cant say enough good things about our military. Its just such a shame we are squandering such a wonderful resource on a senseless war.
ReplyDeleteAlso I have to say I think librarians are very under paid as well as well as the libraries being underfunded. we are breaking our backs to continue to offer programs for kids to keep them off the streets and give them a place to go despite being severly understaffed and underfunded.many times i work off the clock 7 days a week to help sponsor chess tournaments and movie/ book tie ins with trivia and prizes, Teen Lock ins etc.. we have even started a "Teen Council" which allows the teens to develop excellent leadership skills by giving us input as to what programs and services they want and allowing them to help plan many of these activities themselves.
Many of the activities the kids have planned have been non traditional ones that kind of push the envelope such as Battle of The Bands, Card games, video Game tournaments etc and while many people think we should just plan more traditional activities aimed to increase literacy, I feel we have to listen to them and what they want instead of deciding for them. one of the hardest things of all is getting these kids to come in. i've seen many kids who never came to the library start coming regularly for chess,cards, boardgames etc and before long they are coming to check out books on chess or poker or music or video games or to do homework or use computers. While i'm not crazy about Grand Theft Auto or Halo or Doom, if it gets a kid off the streets and encourages him to read and increase his literacy then its ok in my book.
I love my job and wouldnt trade it for anything,I think part of me will always be a kid at heart and thats why I love helping and working with children so much, kids are the future and we need to invest time in them in order to make this world a better place
Mike
Actually Eric, I didnt get to the judgements labels and stereotypes yet, i'm kind of all typed out, but if you tune in tomorrow or Sunday I promise i'll have a response for you by then
ReplyDeleteMike
And actually I seem to remember regarding the fall of the Roman empire, that the decline of morals and multiculturism played a large part.
ReplyDeleteand weren't those a result of their desire for empire, their entanglements in petty and corrupt wars which stretched their resources too thin, and their disdain for helping their fellow man. turning your back on the poor and squeezing the middle class is always a recipe for social unrest and often times revolution and has been the downfall of many countries and regimes
ReplyDeleteMike
...stockholders who actually own the company have no say in what these guys are making (I should know, I’m a stockholder in many companies) You say you celebrate achievers then what would you say to a CEO who did an absolutely unequivocally horrible job yet reaped millions in stock options while many of the working class employees were either laid of or took salary cuts, is this fair?
ReplyDelete-Mike
Mike, you are not seeing the entire picture economically. True small stockholders may have little to say directly about the compensation of an executive; this is the role of the company's board of directors. But stockholders have everything to say about whether they choose to own stock in the company. Similarly consumers of a company's products have everything to say about whether they buy the company's products. A company's very survival depends upon whether they can sell their products and whether they can raise capital for expansion and maintenance of fixed assets.
Are you beginning to see the connection? Most corporate executive compensation is a combination of salary and bonus which is dependent upon the performance of the company. Even if it weren't, if the company is not successful it would be forced to fire it's CEO, or be the target of a hostile takeover by a corporate raider or coalition of stockholders who believe that they can run the company better or sell it to someone who can.
A corporate executive must be a remarkably talented person who must motivate and inspire the top level managers and make the correct strategic decisons to sustain the life of the corporation. For this reason competition to become a CEO must be fierce; in order to attract the talent required, a corporation must offer an attractive compensation package commensurate with the enormous responsibility and pressure.
With the government, you are forced to use their services; if they lose money, they just raise the price. They can provide inferior services, they can fail to innovate, they can show up for work directionless. It's not that the people in government are inferior; they're the same people. The difference is the presence of competition.
This is the fundamental thing that liberals and many government employees fail to see: the corporation can fail, employees can lose jobs. Stockholders can go bankrupt. Nobody is forced to buy their products; they must compete.
A more fundamental question for you is: Who do you think should decide how much a CEO earns? You? The government? This is what the liberal elite believe and why they promote socialism. Socialism fails to provide a robust economy in which all citizens can prosper.
When the market decides corporate compensation, as well as the price of other goods and services, it shows no favorites; it is brutal; it doesn't care who you are or what you look like or whom you're related to. All it cares about is what you can achieve. Sometimes the best thing for the economy is for a company to go out of business and be replaced by a competitor with better ideas.
This is the way the market works in a Free Enterprise economy. The United States embraced Free Enterprise and that is why we are the most successful and prosperous economy which has ever existed in history.
Mike, if you and Ms. Cornell can come up with a better plan to run the U.S. economy be sure to let us know. I'll notify Milton Friedman.
Freedom Fan alot of what you have to say makes sense and I agree with, however I would like to point out that:
ReplyDelete1) until the 1990's it was unheard of for CEO's to make 1000 times more than the average worker I could be off slightly but I believe in the 1970's the average US CEO was making about 14 times what the average worker was making, i'm pretty sure that CEO's in Europe and Asia are still making about 14 times what the average worker is making. now i'm sure your going to say that the US enjoys a more robust economy with a higher growth rate than stodgy Europe or stagnant Japan, my question is, is that higher growth rate a direct result of the CEO's being paid 1000 times what the average worker is paid as opposed. to 14 times? I will agree that talent is important and often times you get what you pay for, but come on, after a certain point adding more zeros is all about greed and ego, are you saying that these guys really REQUIRE say 300 million a year to be motivated as opposed to JUST 3 million?
2)Also although I agree with you that being a successfull CEO does require lots of talent and skill are you saying you attribute the company's success strictly and solely to the CEO, and are you saying that the workers who worked hard and broke their backs for the company's success should have no share of the profits. Because if so then how different is that from feudalism where the serfs and peasants slaved away to enrich their feudal lord. If you look at CEO compansation it has gone up exponentially since the 1970's, while the average worker has actually lost ground after adjusting for inflation. 30 years ago most families could live a comfortable middle class existence with only one parent working, today it almost requires both parents to work just to made endsmeet and survive. I just dont see how you can justify that kind of extreme compensation.
3) what about the CEO's who do a terrible job yet still make a hundred million in stock options, do they deserve it?,
4) uneven wealth distribution is a serious thing,and ultimately it is good for nobody, it was one of the leading causes of the Great Depression.
Mike
“Ann Coulter said that the Golden Rule is just an ‘incidental tenet of Christianity’.”
ReplyDelete-Lydia Cornell
Actually, Ms. Cornell you have once again misquoted Ann Coulter, as you did when you erroneously asserted that she suggested “killing all Muslims”. You seem to have a bad habit of doing that; I am disappointed that you seem to routinely have such little regard for truth. Here is actually what she said:
"Being nice to people is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity, as opposed to other religions whose tenets are more along the lines of ‘kill everyone who doesn't smell bad and doesn't answer to the name Mohammed’”
-Ann Coulter
This is undoubtedly intended to be a scathing, if somewhat humorous, critique about the systemic pathology called “intolerance” (you know that thang you claim to value so highly) which is ubiquitous in most Muslim countries. Furthermore it says nothing about the “Golden Rule” per se. Words have precise meanings; when you are quoting your opponents, words are not simply interchangeable tools to tweak to achieve your political purposes. (I look forward to fact checking your new book.)
As you know the Golden Rule states “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. This is easily the most important of all principles ever devised to guide civilized human behavior. I trust that most people will treat me honorably and I intend to treat them honorably.
However, you apparently believe that being a good Christian requires you to “turn the other cheek” regardless of circumstances. I submit that if you know that someone intends to harm you or your loved ones and you do nothing, you are worse than a sucker. In this case you have betrayed the fiduciary responsibility to protect your loved ones, and you are probably dead. May I assure you that if someone wipes out 3,000 of my countrymen and blasts a crater out of a quarter of New York City, the next thing the bastard sees will not be my cheek.
Mike
ReplyDeleteOf course the boss makes more than the subordinates. I am not particularly concerned about the multiple because the market decides this, as it decides the price of all goods and services in a Free Enterprise economy.
The myopia of my liberal friends is that they see this as a static situation; a trap of social injustice; a clash of the "haves" and the "have-nots". However, if a person has basic talent, works harder, gets more education, develops clients, consistently exceeds his performance objectives, shows initiative, innovates, etc. then he will become the boss. If he is treated unfairly, he can leave and take his talent to a competitor or create his own company and his original company will suffer; but regardless he succeeds and society benefits.
In a healthy market economy, competition ensures that achievers will be rewarded consistently, consumers will benefit, people are fully employed, and everyone prospers. Only the envious people resent, and seek to punish, the success of the achievers.
Wonderful system, isn't it? America...whadda country.
Freedom Fan, I fail to see what you see in Ann Coulter, what is it about Ann Coulter that you can honestly say you admire or like. Look at what she did to Lydia is that the act of a normal reasonable human being to post someone's personal e-mail and phone number and address on the Internet, there is no justification for that it was a dispicible hateful thing to do, no one should have to worry about getting hate calls or having their children terrorized by strangers just showing up at the door.She is a poor excuse for a human being
ReplyDeleteAnd Coulter knew exactly what she was doing by posting that, she even the took the time to delete her own e-mail address the act of a coward. I think it says alot that Coulter basically knew her Fanatics would slither out from under their rocks to attack. How come I never hear of any democrats or liberals showing up at people's doors, or leaving hate messages, could it be thats just a tactic the fanatical Religious Right stoop to.
Mike
FF -- You are not going to get away with dismissing what I say on a technicality. You know what I loved about Solomon? That he had wisdom -- which is a combination of intellect and heart. He didn't just use his brain, which is pretty useless without love. In fact, nothing is worth anything without love, or charity. Are you familiar with the famous passage from Corinthians?
ReplyDeleteYou must realize that being an apologist for Coulter, is like excusing a racist and bigot. It's important to call a spade a spade. I wonder what on earth could have happened to you in life that made you so fearful and angry. I mean, what are you trying to defend so vigorously? The right of Ken Lay to rape employee pension plans, or of Abramoff to steal from the Indian Tribes and bribe half of Congress to get Bush in power -- or Michael Eisner to have taken an extra 200 million as a Christmas bonus - which he actually did each year?
What on earth motivates someone to think it's okay to say that the VERY ESSENCE OF CHRIST'S TEACHING is merely incidental. Do you realize you are completely missing the point when you chastise me for misquoting Coulter by one word in a rapid-fire blog, yet totally miss the spirit of what I'm saying - and of what she represents in volumes of her verbiage? Anyone can look it up; I wasn't trying to fool anyone by my misquote. Wasn't it Christ himself who warned not to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit? I can actually feel your narrow-mindedness.
THE GOLDEN RULE is EXACTLY "being nice to people" Unless you're a masochist, it's pretty hard to misinterpret this one.
And this: "Being nice to people is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity, as opposed to other religions whose tenets are more along the lines of ‘kill everyone who doesn't smell bad and doesn't answer to the name Mohammed’”
-Ann Coulter
If that isn't racism (as in liberals are traitors and “If you don’t hate Clinton and the people who labored to keep him in office, you don’t love your country.” – *George, 7/99) "Oh how I LOATHE him"
If you are defending Coulter then you have a big job ahead.
And anyway, her quote about killing Muslim leaders and converting them to Christianity is UNCHRISTIAN AND HEINOUS -- so is her "humorous" statement above.
FF said: However, you apparently believe that being a good Christian requires you to “turn the other cheek” regardless of circumstances. I submit that if you know that someone intends to harm you or your loved ones and you do nothing, you are worse than a sucker.
ReplyDeleteYou know what? This is why few will get through that gate; it's too narrow. Only one time out of ten can I even stop fighting in my own household, when my husband and I are arguing. But the times I do it, are miraculous. I've also done it in life-threatening situations.
Then you said this:
"May I assure you that if someone wipes out 3,000 of my countrymen and blasts a crater out of a quarter of New York City, the next thing the bastard sees will not be my cheek."
I would love to have gone after Osama and the actual terrorists, instead of wasting our MOST PRECIOUS SOLDIERS ON A FAKE WAR FOR PURPOSES WE DON'T EVEN KNOW!
How come I never hear of any democrats or liberals showing up at people's doors, or leaving hate messages, could it be thats just a tactic the fanatical Religious Right stoop to.
ReplyDelete-Mike
...people who constantly stand in judgement of others and use labels or stereotypes to define or portray a diverse group of people as the same or as having the same
views...
-Mike (earlier)
Mike, thanks for your crystal example of a characteristic we Jacksonian Conservatives like to call "hypocrisy".
If you will review my comment in the original blog, you will find that I did indeed harshly criticize Ann Coulter's failure to remove Ms. Cornell's business address from her email, although I consider the email address to be fair game. However, I do assert that Ms. Cornell's tone in the original correspondence was rather disingenuous; essentially posing as a friend, a "former Republican" just doing a little research, when really her intent was to skewer her in a book with the title "How to Talk to Ann Coulter - If You Must".
What is the left's obsession with the "Religious Right"? What credible Conservatives have you heard defending Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson? Go to LittleGreenFootballs; they have nominated Pat Robertson for the Idiotarian of the Year award. These doofuses have absolutely no power among Conservatives; they are ridiculed as they deserve to be. Are Liberals equally critical of their loony fringe elements? Nah. Your mantra is "tolerance" and "open-mindedness"--except when the ideas are Conservative. The "Religious Right" is a boogeyman erected by the Liberals to scare each other or ridicule the vast majority of common folks with traditional values. Liberals ignore or coddle the real imperialist theocracy; the one which has promised to annialate us and is doing their best on 9/11 and 24/7. See if you can guess which one. Take your time…
FF says:
ReplyDelete"Only the envious people resent, and seek to punish, the success of the achievers."
When the "achievers" collude to price-fix, create diseases so they can create demand for drugs for children's mood swings -- and create a junk-food industry based on corn syrup sweetener which is not only in Coke and all soft drinks, but in HOT DOG BUNS and Wheat Thins -- (and we wonder about our rising obesity rate) -- and allow media monopoly cut out the small radio stations, which results in Clear Channel -- a Republican supported corporation owning over 600 talk-radio stations -- and add to this the scandals of Republican lobbyists like Abramoff buying off Congressmen to pass big-business laws in favor of certain "defense contractors" and pharmaceutical firms -- I would hardly call that a free market.
What about Congressmen voting themselves a six-figure lifetime health and benefit package -- that never expires even after the leave office?
The worst thing to me is that we've created such an inflated housing market that it takes two incomes -- both the husband and wife working outside the home to bring in income to afford basics in life. How do young mothers abide by the Christian "stay-at-home-mom" ethic, and still afford to live in their own home?
And by the way, did you know all our U.S. corn supply is permanently tainted with the gene of a fly? They crossed it as an experiment to make it more resistant to the fruit fly, but it got mixed in and now we are all eating this stuff.
I am obviously angry at the Abramoff scandal, which is dirtier than anything (way more criminal than Watergate) and it leads directly to Rove and Bush.
FF, i'll post a response on Judging others as well as labeling and stereotyping tomorrow or Sunday, most likely Sunday, because from where I sit, thats all conservatives do is label stereotype and stand in judgement of others.
ReplyDeletebut right now its bed time
Mike
still here but about to hit the sack
ReplyDeleteMike
what are you up to?
ReplyDeleteMike
he posted Right after FF at 9:07 AM this morning. (lots of long posts today)
ReplyDeleteMike
...being an apologist for Coulter, is like excusing a racist and bigot. It's important to call a spade a spade. I wonder what on earth could have happened to you in life that made you so fearful and angry. I mean, what are you trying to defend so vigorously?
ReplyDelete-Lydia Cornell
Why I'm here to defend the truth Ms. Cornell; perhaps you've noticed.
You routinely misquote your political opponents while you brand them as liars, racists, and bigots with little supporting foundation. Apparently you think precise words are trivial when quoting someone. I do not.
Pat Robertson should be committed to a mental institution -- or at least should not be on the public airwaves. Nor should Ann Coulter. They can blog, but they should not have a national TV forum. People across the world are getting a pretty twisted impression of America by these two hateful liars and pessimists.
-Lydia Cornell
Apparently now you believe that your opponents should be forcibly silenced. Would you also repeal the first amendment? This doesn't sound much like "tolerance" to me. If you are confident that your ideas are superior wouldn't it be preferable to allow them to duke it out in the arena of public opinion?
Only the envious people resent, and seek to punish, the success of the achievers.
ReplyDelete-Freedom Fan
When the "achievers" collude to price-fix, create diseases so they can create demand for drugs for children's mood swings -- and create a junk-food industry based on corn syrup sweetener which is not only in Coke and all soft drinks, but in HOT DOG BUNS and Wheat Thins -- (and we wonder about our rising obesity rate) -- and allow media monopoly cut out the small radio stations, which results in Clear Channel -- a Republican supported corporation owning over 600 talk-radio stations -- and add to this the scandals of Republican lobbyists like Abramoff buying off Congressmen to pass big-business laws in favor of certain "defense contractors" and pharmaceutical firms -- I would hardly call that a free market.
-Lydia Cornell
If crimes have been committed, by all means punish the criminals. If competition is lacking, by all means enforce anti-trust laws and imprison the price-fixers. (Interesting isn't it that labor union activity is not considered "price-fixing" of labor.) Congress holds a special session to investigate the energy industry every time prices go up. They seem ok though when prices go down. And never any investigation when frivolous litigation and regulation destroys companies and jobs.
Despite all the lessons of history, liberals want to elect hillary, impose socialism, abandon the dynamics of free enterprise, and become stagnant like Europe. If you can name a country which doesn't have problems I would be very interesting in learning its name.
There is no country with a better system to allow its citizens the freedom to pursue happiness and prosper economically. None. Liberals seek a utopian ideal which will never exist. In so doing they will be killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
"The best is the enemy of the good."
-Voltaire.
Freedom Fan, Michael Eisner is a perfect example of what I said before that while I feel the market does decide the salarys of actors, sports figures and lawyers it does not decide this for CEO's. and as for large shareholders having a say, Roy Disney one of the largest shareholders and nephew of the founder tried to justify having this clown removed for close to a decade to no avail, the stock did terrible, and yet Eisner saw fit to give himself an obscene bonus he didnt deserve every year. you also say its up to the boards to control this, thats kind of hard when many of these bad apples control the board as well. as far as i'm concerned hiding behind the mantra that market dictates what these guys are worth for a poor performer like Eisner is an indefensible position. it is also ludicris to say the CEO is solely responsible for the companys success, what about all the hard workers shouldnt they be compensated for a company's success as well because they are always the first to be penalized during tough times, If we are talking capitalism everyone should share in the success, not just a select few.
ReplyDeleteAlso The reason I want to post on labels, sterotypes and judging others Freedom Fan is because you as well as many others label me as a liberal and attribute me to automatically believing in everything you attribute them to stand for, and what I find insulting about this is that you've known me for about 10 minutes you've categorized me with a neat little stereotype and seem to think you know everything I stand for and believe in. a good portion of what you say I agree with but probably the majority I strongly disagree with. I just think it is a tendency of conservatives to generalize and label people like this and I find it insulting.
Mike
I am sure Lydia would defend her family with the fury of a lioness, however, should the situation require she use extreme force to save her loved ones........ Would she pull the trigger?
ReplyDelete"Resist Not Evil" and "Do Not Fight Back". Yet Mike says: "I dont think she is advocating looking the other way and doing nothing though".
Could someone please draw the fine line between these two statements? I am very curious?
As for economics: "The rich are always *&#%&*# over the poor. Always have, always will".
Platoon
Sometimes, some people, are just plain unlucky.
Johnny moo moo
P.S. I am not poor and could easily fly to D.C. and have a couple of drinks with Worfeus today and then fly to Erics house and have a couple with him :D
Almost forgot!
ReplyDeleteMike, I like your 8:37 PM post concerning kids.
Johnny moo moo
I'm game Johnny!
ReplyDeleteBarroom debate is usually the best.
Typically over a game of pool on a
small quarter operated table.
Also The reason I want to post on labels, sterotypes and judging others Freedom Fan is because you as well as many others label me as a liberal and attribute me to automatically believing in everything you attribute them to stand for, and what I find insulting about this is that you've known me for about 10 minutes you've categorized me with a neat little stereotype and seem to think you know everything I stand for and believe in. a good portion of what you say I agree with but probably the majority I strongly disagree with. I just think it is a tendency of conservatives to generalize and label people like this and I find it insulting.
ReplyDelete-Mike
Mike, I apologize if I've offended you somehow. But as I’ve pointed out, it is very difficult to hold a debate without making some generalizations. I’ve also demonstrated that it is difficult to rip someone for using generalizations without appearing hypocritical when you start making generalizations of your own. Do you play any sports in which the rules are different depending upon whose team you’re on? Perhaps you are simply unaware that you do this. But I’m curious as to why most liberals don't admit that they are, whereas most Conservatives are proud to do so?
Maybe there's a reason that many people assert that you're a liberal. You and Ms. Cornell passionately argue for state control over fundamental business decision-making and policies such as compensation. Kinda sounds Liberal, don't it? Would you want the government interfering in your personal decision-making as well? Maybe I would become more convinced if you provided examples of some of your Conservative beliefs.
Obviously everyone in a group does not think exactly like everyone else. But Conservatives and Liberals each start with a set of core values which establishes their world view through which they subjectively filter all information. DenBeste nails the essence of the dichotomy between our two world views:
It is a struggle between those who accept responsibility for their own fates and those who refuse to do so; those who work to make their own future better and those who blame their failure on others.
-Steven DenBeste
When Conservatives say "individual responsibility" Liberals hear "cruelty to poor people". In fact, when a person stops blaming others for his failures and becomes self-reliant he releases the incredible energy which flows from a life-long attitude of confidence and pride of accomplishment. Individual responsibility is the mantra of Conservatives not because we want to be mean to anyone; on the contrary we want everyone to experience the joy which enters the human heart when a person replaces envy with this healthy pride.
U.S. Conservatives are passionate about freedom and defending the country which established it with the creation of the U.S. Constitution in 1776. Liberals are passionate about robbing our freedom in exchange for security provided by the state. However, they are unable to point to single example of a social experiment which has worked as well as ours.
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.
- Ben Franklin
Liberals appear to believe that the ends justifies the means and as such have a very cavalier attitude towards pursuing truth, as I have demonstrated on many occasions. Liberals have little trust in the wisdom of common folks and our traditional values. They insist on using the courts to impose their own elite views upon the benighted masses, rather than allowing people to choose their own destiny through the democratic legislative process. Liberals believe the U.S. Constitution is a “living breathing” document which means whatever they want it to mean, regardless of original intent. Attempting to change the Constitution without due process is an ominous threat to liberty and represents a fundamental violation of the Constitution itself.
When Conservatives say "compassion" Liberals snigger because they believe only the state can be compassionate and they know Conservatives oppose welfare. But we do so because it robs people of the pride of self-reliance and saddles them with the sad bitterness of government dependence. Most Conservatives are generous with their own wealth as are many Liberals (those who have wealth). But only people can be compassionate, not a stodgy bureaucrat in some gray government office.
Similarly, when Conservatives say “patriotism” liberals hear “jingoism” because they don’t believe their country is anything about which to be particularly proud. Some liberals like noam chomsky, ward churchill, and george galloway even have a passionate hatred for their own countries, and wish to see us suffer. Maybe I would be more convinced that you are not a Liberal if I heard any of you folks criticize your looney, dangerous fringe elements such as these.
Maybe you are really a Conservative but don’t realize it yet. Perhaps I can help.
Freedom Fan, I agree with a good portion of what you say, and you didnt really offend me personally, I am just a little frustrated that because I have liberal views on many issues I am given a label and people feel they know what my view will be on all issues with out knowing me at all. I will concede that people do tend to make generalizations and inferences about others but I think we should try to make them more on what they actually do say rather than what we think they would say or what we think they believe in. And yes you are right liberals can be guilty of this at times also, if it appears I have done this I apologize, I also feel that Conservatives tend to attack the person as well as the issue being debated more than liberals do, you might feel liberals do this also and you have a right to your opinion.
ReplyDeleteI would really like to respond in more detail to your post this evening when i'm out of work, but in general my views pretty much mirror Lydia's on most of these issues, and I dont think you are going to change my views(you probably feel the same) that doesnt mean I dont enjoy debating you on issues, and I do respect you, however as I said before I think we all need to pay more attention to what the person is actually saying rather than what we think they would say. Because on some of your points we are in agreement or at least partial agreement.
I also would like to hear your opinion of Eisner, do you think it is justified for a CEO who does a terrible job to award themselves huge bonus. I mean i'm for a market based system in most instances as well, I even gave examples, but how can it be ok to put the fox in charge of the hen house.
Mike
Johnny Moo Moo -- I will post a new blog either tonight or on Monday night, depending on how much "real" work I finish.
ReplyDeleteI will be dealing with the NSA and Bush "Spying on Americans"
I will also answer your questions about God and life after death -- and the dilemma about human suffering. I really feel I've come to some astounding conclusions.
Big K -- why don't you answer Worfeus?
ReplyDeleteLet's play big guy...come to Excalibur.
ReplyDeleteFreedom Fan, you do make some good points, and I think you are a good guy basically, but there are alot of things you said that I dont agree with at all, that I would like to elaborate on and hopefully hear your response to my arguments. Only thing is my reply will probably have to wait till tomorrow evening, unless I get home early enough tonight.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Worfeus, that although I dont know enough about these people to form a really educated opinion, I am not Teddy Kennedy or Hillary Clinton Fans either.
One thing try not to take offense to my posts and i'll do likewise to you, and try to listen to my arguments with an open mind and listen to what I am actually saying, not what you think believe or stand for.
Mike
What a great topic for the next Blog, I just read an article on MSN about Bush Spying on americans this morning, in fact i'll paste it on here so people can read it.
ReplyDeleteMike
Analysts: Bush spying rationale legally shaky
ReplyDeleteMemo questions use of presidential power in wiretapping without approval
President Bush maintains he has constitutional and congressional authority to conduct domestic surveillance without court approval.
Ron Edmonds / AP file
MORE• Analysts: Bush spying rationale legally shaky
• Most viewed on MSNBC.com
By Carol D. Leonnig
Updated: 12:17 a.m. ET Jan. 7, 2006
WASHINGTON - A report by Congress's research arm concluded yesterday that the administration's justification for the warrantless eavesdropping authorized by President Bush conflicts with existing law and hinges on weak legal arguments.
The Congressional Research Service's report rebuts the central assertions made recently by Bush and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales about the president's authority to order secret intercepts of telephone and e-mail exchanges between people inside the United States and their contacts abroad.
The findings, the first nonpartisan assessment of the program's legality to date, prompted Democratic lawmakers and civil liberties advocates to repeat calls yesterday for Congress to conduct hearings on the monitoring program and attempt to halt it.
Story continues below ↓
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The 44-page report said that Bush probably cannot claim the broad presidential powers he has relied upon as authority to order the secret monitoring of calls made by U.S. citizens since the fall of 2001. Congress expressly intended for the government to seek warrants from a special Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court before engaging in such surveillance when it passed legislation creating the court in 1978, the CRS report said.
The report also concluded that Bush's assertion that Congress authorized such eavesdropping to detect and fight terrorists does not appear to be supported by the special resolution that Congress approved after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which focused on authorizing the president to use military force.
• More U.S. news
"It appears unlikely that a court would hold that Congress has expressly or impliedly authorized the NSA electronic surveillance operations here," the authors of the CRS report wrote. The administration's legal justification "does not seem to be . . . well-grounded," they said.
Lawmakers lash out at spy program
Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has pledged to hold hearings on the program, which was first revealed in news accounts last month, and the judges of the FISA court have demanded a classified briefing about the program, which is scheduled for Monday.
"This report contradicts the president's claim that his spying on Americans was legal," said Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), one of the lawmakers who asked the CRS to research the issue. "It looks like the president's wiretapping was not only illegal, but also ensnared innocent Americans who did nothing more than place a phone call."
Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the president and the administration believe the program is on firm legal footing. "The national security activities described by the president were conducted in accord with the law and provide a critical tool in the war on terror that saves lives and protects civil liberties at the same time," he said. A spokesman for the National Security Agency was not available for a comment yesterday.
Other administration officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the CRS reached some erroneous legal conclusions, erring on the side of a narrow interpretation of what constitutes military force and when the president can exercise his war powers.
Click for related stories
WP: Cheney cites justifications for eavesdropping
Homeland Security opening private mail | Vote
A global, indefinite war?
Bush has said that he has broad powers in times of war and must exercise them to target not only "enemies across the world" but also "terrorists here at home." The administration has argued, starting in 2002 briefs to the FISA court, that the "war on terror" is global and indefinite, effectively removing the limits of wartime authority -- traditionally the times and places of imminent or actual battle.
Some law professors have been skeptical of the president's assertions, and several said yesterday that the report's conclusions were expected. "Ultimately, the administration's position is not persuasive," said Carl W. Tobias, a University of Richmond law professor and an expert on constitutional law. "Congress has made it pretty clear it has legislated pretty comprehensively on this issue with FISA," he said, referring to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. "And there begins to be a pattern of unilateral executive decision making. Time and again, there's the executive acting alone without consulting the courts or Congress."
Balance of power
Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said the report makes it clear that Congress has exerted power over domestic surveillance. He urged Congress to address what he called the president's abuse of citizens' privacy rights and the larger issue of presidential power.
"These are absolutely central questions in American government: What exactly are the authorities vested in the president, and is he complying with the law?" Rotenberg said.
The report includes 1970s-era quotations from congressional committees that were then uncovering years of domestic spying abuses by J. Edgar Hoover's FBI against those suspected of communist sympathies, American Indians, Black Panthers and other activists. Lawmakers were very disturbed at how routinely FBI agents had listened in on U.S. citizens' phone calls without following any formal procedures. As they drafted FISA and created its court, the lawmakers warned then that only strong legislation, debated in public, could stop future administrations from eavesdropping.
"This evidence alone should demonstrate the inappropriateness of relying solely on executive branch discretion to safeguard civil liberties," they wrote. The lawmakers noted that Congress's intelligence committees could provide some checks and balances to protect privacy rights but that their power was limited in the face of an administration arguing that intelligence decisions must remain top secret.
Researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
Sorry about that, i'm new to blogs, wont happen again
ReplyDeleteMike
Well Worf,
ReplyDeleteI guess you'll have to forgive him,
his being new to blogging and all.
Im peeping for you Worfeus :}
ReplyDeleteThere is much substance to what Freedom Fan is writing. I appreciate what he is saying about free enterprise and democracy,nevertheless, I applaud Lydia and Mike for an excellent job in presenting their very reasonable views/logic.
Johnny moo moo
Eric - I am no pillar of human perfection and, in my eyes you are forgiven whether this was a genuine mistake or not.
ReplyDeleteActually, I may have plagiarized myself with "War is never a picnic". The author of the book I was reading was quoting from an unknown, half insane, german leuitanant?
Johnny moo moo
Thank you Johnny, I'm learning.
ReplyDeleteMaybe if I can make all the mistakes first an get 'em out of the way...lol
By the way Johnny,
ReplyDeleteIf the book was "Forgotten Soldier" it may not even be an actual account (seems to be some controversy over that) so you may not have plagiarized anyone at all....lol
Man, did I ever spell "lieutenant" wrong. I want to crawl under a rock and never show my face again.:|
ReplyDeleteJohnny moo moo
Also Worf,
ReplyDeleteI happen to be a Star Trek fan as well. Although I'm more fond of the old series. Kirk was a good Republican boy. (even if Shatner is not) Piccard seems to be more of a socialist.
In my opinion Rick Berman has really ruined the franchise ethically and morally if not financially.
by the way Worf,
ReplyDeleteAin't it time to bump your post to "big k" again? Hurry he may not see it.
Actually Eric , I have researched this rather well and I am convinced it is a factual account. Extremely detailed and vivid, how can a critic expect a young 16 year old "private" soldier in an ss division to remember exactly where he was on the broad front of the the Russian expanse.
ReplyDeleteThis book is my bible.
Johnny moo moo
Well good luck with your reading Johnny. I gotta hit the hay.
ReplyDeleteTime for all good little conservatives to be tucked away in their beds.
LOL - yeah right!
As tigger would say "ttfn"
(ta ta for now)
Take care Eric.
ReplyDeleteJohnny moo moo