I have to go back and listen to the transcipt, but he hung up on me. He said, "Okay, you used the word "Nazi" so I'm hanging up on you." Now of course I realize the word 'Nazi' is overused and verboten in political discourse, but why couldn't he have answered my question and really heard the question? I didn't use the word in the context he was thinking. I was honestly trying to get an answer to this serious dilemma. The Sarah Palin tribe wants to take away a woman's right to choose, but even if you're a Christian, I think they are wrong. There's a reason the womb is encased in the separate "body" of each individual woman. The choice must be up to her; we are each given free will and this is a decision between the woman and God, if she is religious (at least in the first trimester.) I just don't see how you enforce such a crime without dire consequences.
Check this out:
The Great Schlep!
America has become a battleground of opposing forces: the optimist, the atheist, the fundamentalist and of course, the idiot – that person inside all of us (or just that guy in the White House) who chooses to remain unconscious. - Lydia
More comedy bits below, but first this BREAKING NEWS ITEM!
Historic $700 billion bailout deal reached
Questions remain as Congress votes on legislation this week
By Mark Silva | Chicago Tribune Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON - In the short run, congressional leaders have achieved their goal of producing an agreement Sunday on a federal bailout of banks and other financial institutions holding bad mortgage debts before the world's stock markets reopened.
But in the long run, the scope and still-unknown effects of the greatest government intervention in the financial markets since the Great Depression – and the remaining underlying instability of the nation's economy -- will impose a new political challenge for the next president and Congress elected in November. The situation already has reshaped the election campaign debate.
Congressional leaders face another immediate and uncertain challenge this week – with the House expected to vote on the plan as soon as Monday, and the Senate as soon as Wednesday – in corralling enough votes to both pass it and present the controversial two-stage bailout as a bipartisan response to a national crisis.
While resistant House Republican leaders have agreed to it, many rank and file members still are balking at the unprecedented bailout of the nation's financial institutions, piling as much as $700 billion of new federal debt on the nation's taxpayers.
Bailout Deal Reached
__________________________
COMIC RELIEF by Lydia Cornell (some bits I've been working on for a new show called "Pain is Inevitable, Sex Optional
We had a neighborhood poker game going on the other night and this obnoxious loudmouth kept spitting and shoving and winning and bragging about it. He had no humility. I have to admit, he was pretty good for an six-year-old.
When my son was five, he went through a modesty phase. He wouldn’t change his clothes even in front of me. He asked me one day, “I hope the doctor didn’t see me naked when I was born!”
Why do I have to adapt my language to suit the men in my life? I have to speak in a masculine way to my sons like this: “That’s sweatshirt's a nice color. Cool.” I am forbidden to say, “That’s a pretty color..." They can’t tolerate even the most subtle feminine words or a less than macho lilt to my voice. When did it happen — when did being a woman become so uncool, so passé? Everything has to be slanted toward the male voice. It p---s me off! And my sons won’t go to a single movie with a female protagonist, while I have to suffer through raunchy, sophomoric, loud, explosive testosterone-fueled "guy" movies until I want to scream! Why are the deep thoughts of low-lifes, the only movies they make anymore? (Photo of the boys when they were 7 and 8)
Frankly I’d be happy if he just pretended to listen to me; if he would just nod his head and say “Uh-huh, uh-huh” that would be fine – because a woman’s primary need is to be heard.
Is it wrong to dream about other men when you’re married? I had a dream the other night that I was up in a mountain cabin having cocktails with Errol Flynn when suddenly the door blew open and Sean Connery came riding in on a yak. I think it was a yak, but you know how in dreams it could have been a mule or an elk? I had a baby on my lap and I kept thinking, “he’s a cute baby, but I wish he’d lose that phony Italian accent. I looked at his face and it was Johnny Depp, trying to sell me a hot dog. Is this a sexual dream? I can’t figure it out.
I went to a kosher butcher whose cuts of meat were so symmetrical it made me wonder if he cuts hair too. “Give me a pound of briscuit and take a couple of inches off the top.” It’s obvious that Jane Wyman and Mo of the Three Stooges got their hair cut at the butcher.
My husband is still angry that we didn’t use his dog as the ring-bearer in our wedding. And now that Sammi has died, he is taking it out on me.
Maybe my husband’s good for me; he dulls my mind. Maybe the blankness, the lack of engaged conversation is healthy. We speak to each other in one-syllables. I do wish he’d take that class in pretending to listen.
Why aren’t cars made out of fur? There’d be fewer fatal car crashes.
I wish I could figure out a way to make money out of just piddling around the house.
I decided not to surround myself with critical people. Now I have no friends.
I do have to badger my husband into mental health. I’m always chasing him around the house with a psychology book and he’s always running away and hiding when I want to talk. And my kids make me play Harry Potter – I have to wear a long black robe and ride a broomstick around the house. To get out of it, I hide from them in the closet. One time I ducked into the closet and found my husband in there hiding from me!
Now I realize I am deliberately not letting myself be more evolved in this relationship because there’s too much comedy material I’m getting out of it.
My husband is a Republican who thinks all Democrats are vegetarians, but that’s perfect because I think you’re supposed to be married to the person who annoys you the most! That’s why the Arabs and Israelis are next door to each other, they just don’t get it yet. The most spiritual growth happens with your enemies. So I’m in a really good position. Although I have never finished a sentence in this marriage. I am always being interrupted!
NOW THIS IS REALLY FUNNY...
FLIGHT OF THE CONCHORDS
You know the saying that opposites attract. I guess that's true some of the time! Thanks for the humor. I think if we couldn't take the time to laugh while there is so much pain in this world, we'd all go crazy!
ReplyDeleteLydia said...
ReplyDeleteWhy do I have to adapt my language to suit the men in my life? I have to speak in a masculine way to my sons like this: “That’s sweatshirt's a nice color. Cool.” I am forbidden to say, “That’s a pretty color..." They can’t tolerate even the most subtle feminine words or a less than macho lilt to my voice. When did it happen — when did being a woman become so uncool, so passé? Everything has to be slanted toward the male voice. It p---s me off
Because they're boys Lydia. Young men. Its not good to use feminine terms to describe your boys stuff. You need to understand you're raising boys not girls, so you need to approach things differently.
I'm not for all this "testosterone hate" stuff. Testosterone is good. Its what makes our voices deep, our muscles grow, and gives us drive, both to procreate and to assert ourselves in the world.
The hardest period for a young man is between 12 and 18. Those years he's learning to deal with these new hormones and new emotions and the worst thing that can happen to him is to be smothered by his mother. He needs his dads influence here, and his dads attention and you as a mom need to honor and respect the fact that hes growing into a young man.
They'll naturally reject feminine things and words and its important that you don't get offended by this but instead understand that its just a natural part of becoming a young man and the best thing to do is respect it and not try to work against it.
And by the way, some good advice is to get them engaged in a sport of some kind. I recommend some form of martial art, as it teaches discipline, control and respect for others, something not taught today in most scholastic team sports, like football or basketball.
ReplyDeleteWeighlifting or running are good choices too. They develop the body and give the testosterone "a place to go" so to speak.
Rock climbings another good one, being you live in Kaleeefornya. Swimming, wrestling, etc. Anything that develops strength, discipline, confidence, etc, will do wonders for your family life.
Failure to engage your young men in a physical activity that strengthens the body and allows the release of aggression can lead to problems as they grow, and trust me, you don't want that.
Hey Lydia, thats a cute an funny blog, I really frickin like it, but is your husband like really a REpublican?
ReplyDeleteI like grew up with a bunch of older brothers an i think i gave mom some frickin cover to be a girl, but i like know exactly what your talkin about.
ReplyDeleteLydia are those like images of your kids?
ReplyDeletePosted at kay's blog;
ReplyDeleteCould the “bailout” be a very quiet restructuring of the Republican Party’s power structure
This question is not as tin foil as it seems. Given the way this year’s campaign has played out the three legs of the stool which makes up the Republican Party have fought for control over the future of the party. The social conservatives wing have been led by Mike Huckabee, the National security wing of the Republican Party or neo-cons, as we call them have their candidate in McCain and the economic wing or Wall Street wing had Mitt Romney. McCain won the nomination and then picked Sarah Palin as a nod to the social conservative wing. This left the economic wing or Wall Street out in a way.
For a couple of weeks things looked up for the republicans, however as the economy kept sliding on the slow motion path it has been on for over a year into recession, taking banks and investment firms with it, the economic conservatives started sounding the alarm, but NOT for the reasons one would think. So with their clarion call of the past nine days, the economic conservatives have reasserted their claim on what matters to Americans. This makes their candidate Romney look better in comparison to either McCain or Palin. Well given that most economic conservatives are starting to write this year off, they are looking to the future, which means how to rest control of the party from the “bible thumpers” or the Bomb, bomb, bomb crowd? Since money is control, they have devised a plan it seems to undercut the ability of the other two to push their candidates in the future.
Here a little investigation is in order. What is the bailout supposed to do, and how can it accomplish those objectives. Simply put, the economy has too much toxic debt held by ordinary Americans in their home mortgages and credit cards which is currently in question of ever being paid off. Combine this debt with the fact the banks who created that credit in the first place can’t take a hit like that the move to repackage that debt into investment vehicles to sell to unwary people and other financial institutions now looks dubious at best. However we are in the hole we dug so now we need to “get out”. But until you know the depth of the hole and possible paths out, you can’t really ascertain if the path proposed by Paulson is credible.
[http://www.denninger.net/letters/mathematics.pdf] How deep is it?
United States non-financial private debt is $32.4 trillion dollars and household debt is $10.0 trillion as of 2Q 2008. This encompasses mortgages, auto loans, credit cards, HELOCs, commercial and industrial loans, LBO monies outstanding and all other forms of non-financial (e.g. not including margin loans and similar) debt.
With the down turn in housing prices employment and wages in the past year, this debt looks more dangerous in the short term. Add to this the over 9 trillion of public debt the US already owes, and the possible 5 trillion it acquired by taking Fannie and Freddie on its books and you can understand how deep the whole for the US is. (Europe, Russia, China and the rest of Asia have similar problems).
Well how can we get out a hole of this magnitude? The first way is quite simple, allow the entire economic mess to work its way out and lets the chips fall where they may. Nice in economic theory or right wing political screeching, but hundreds of millions of people would be forced to suffer in ways we haven’t seen since the 1930’s. So if we can’t rely on the markets to solve the problem they created, where do we turn? Of course the government, where Wall Street has turned every time their greed has gotten the best of them, like in 1933, 1981, 1988-92. They want to be bailed out from their over indulgence in unfettered greed. Hence the ability of Henry Paulson to set up his “bailout”, and place in motion the plan he wants to use for the people he wishes to run the Republican Party for years to come.
How can Hank accomplish this? Well actually easy, in fact the whole operation is well laid out in this article;
Tar Pit Operation at work
The JPM takeout of WAMU is significant and once again illustrates the “Tar Pit Operation”. The details indicate (on its face) that no FDIC funds were involved.
1. Carrion is stuck in the Pit.
2. Saber Tooth (Friend of Hankenstein-FOH ) takes the Carrion in a government orchestrated “rescue” or “hand off”. Carrion shareholders and debt holders are completely wiped out. The FDIC gets brownie points for not taking a hit (or a small one), and can then point to the anti moral hazard lesson “to be learned”.
3. The assets and trashed securities of the Carrion are taken for a song.
4. A portion of the low cost basis trashed securities FOH (JPM in this instance) has taken are then marked up and profitably sold to the US Treasury’s deal making Leviathan.
The next step to look for is the Leviathan arrangement with Congress to emerge. They may now need a Black Friday or Monday demonstration to act, but act they will. A few more big banks will likely fail over the weekend providing the political cover.
As part of the “compromise” Hankenstein’s Leviathan will come as a tranche deal (say $200 billion at first) whereby Hankenstein initially gets a “trial stash” to work with. Once Hankenstein gets the first tranche he works a smoke and mirrors razzle dazzle whereby fixed “prices” are established.
Since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been seized as well, look for those and failed banks to be the center of the action. Securities Leviathan buys will also be flipped for small profits, and within weeks this will be revealed to the Public as part of a new found transparency propaganda machine. Leviathan will win brownie points for its early “wins” for the Taxpayers.
Unfortunately more “failures” will emerge as the Tar Pit fills up. Hankenstein will ask for and receive more tranches from Congress, and his role as middle man (wholesaler) to facilitate the monster asset handoff to FOHs will accelerate as will the hidden cost to the taxpayer.
Hundreds of billions of assets are wholesaled in back door razzle dazzle transactions before January 20, 2009. Then Hank’s Boyz rip up and take the bathroom toilets off the walls, and a steaming sack of turds is left at the front door of the White House as a welcome present to the next President.
If you followed that, you now understand the power Henry Paulson was asking for.
Here is the political world he is operating in.
Last January the entire planet thought they were going to watch Hillary Clinton waltz her way to the Oval Office. This is supposed to be a Democratic Party year, and she has been vetted by wall street, they approved of her husband’s operation for them so with the same people behind the scenes wall street wasn’t too worried.
On the republican side a three way split developed, which McCain won, however if Hillary had won things wouldn’t have been so dire for those on Wall Street. She could have protected the big money interests, and everything would have been fine. But she lost, AND THEN McCain didn’t pick a Wall Street approved second banana. If McCain had won things wouldn’t have been too bad he either would have put Phil Gramm or some approved guy like him in treasury and with Bernanke things would have been acceptable.
Neither scenario seems plausible now, Hillary is gone and McCain is sinking as fast as futures and banks. So with the break out things get interesting. But looking under the hood shows how the “masters of the universe are gaming the system to enable themselves to dictate the future of the Republican Party and given the depth of this economic morass, the 2012 election.
Bernanke is playing quick and loose with his levers to temporarily ramp up the crisis.
As we see here
BANKER'S COUP?
Financial industry rep. Paulson is the ringleader in a banker's coup the results of which will decide America's economic and political future for years to come. The coup leaders have drained tens of billions of dollars of liquidity from the already-strained banking system to trigger a freeze in interbank lending and hasten a stock market crash. This, they believe, will force Congress to pass Paulson's $770 billion bailout package without further congressional resistance. It's blackmail.
As yet, no one knows whether the coup-backers will succeed and further consolidate their political power via a massive economic shock to the system, but their plan continues to move jauntily forward while the economy follows its inexorable slide to disaster.
The bailout has galvanized grassroots movements which have flooded congressional FAXs and phone lines. Callers are overwhelmingly opposed to any bailout for banks that are buckling under their own toxic mortgage-backed assets. One analyst said that the calls to Congress are 50 percent "No" and 50 percent "Hell, No". There is virtually no popular support for the bill.
From Bloomberg News: "Erik Brynjolfsson, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School, said his main objection "is the breathtaking amount of unchecked discretion it gives to the Secretary of the Treasury. It is unprecedented in a modern democracy."
"I suspect that part of what we're seeing in the freezing up of lending markets is strategic behavior on the part of big financial players who stand to benefit from the bailout," said David K. Levine, an economist at Washington University in St. Louis, who studies liquidity constraints and game theory." (Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis)
Brynjolfsson's suspicions are well-founded. "Market Ticker's" Karl Denninger confirms that the Fed has been draining the banking system of liquidity in order to blackmail Congress into passing the new legislation. Here's Denninger:
"The Effective Fed Funds rate has been trading 50 basis points or more below the 2% target for five straight days now, and for the last two days, it has traded 75 basis points under. The IRX is demanding an immediate rate cut. The Slosh has been intentionally drained by over $125 billion in the last week and lowering the water in the swamp exposed one dead body - Washington Mutual - which was immediately raided on a no-notice basis by JP Morgan. Not even WaMu's CEO knew about the raid until it was done....The Fed claims to be an "independent central bank." They are nothing of the kind; they are now acting as an arsonist. The Fed and Treasury have claimed this is a "liquidity crisis"; it is not. It is an insolvency crisis that The Fed, Treasury and the other regulatory organs of our government have intentionally allowed to occur."
Bingo. This is a banker's coup cooked up and facilitated by the deep-money guys who operate stealthily behind the political sideshow. The only time they emerge from their stinkholes is when they're flushed out by a crisis that threatens their continued dominance. Grassroots resistance, spearheaded by Internet bloggers (like Mish, Roubini and Denninger) are demonstrating that they can mobilize tens of thousands of "peasants with pitchforks" and be a factor in political decision making. It also helps to have elected officials, like Senator Richard Shelby, who stand firm on principle and don't faint at the first whiff of grapeshot (like his weak-kneed Democratic counterparts) Shelby has shouldered the full-weight of executive pressure which has descended on him like a Appalachian rockslide. As a result, there's still a slight chance that the bill will have to be shelved and the industry reps will have to go back to Square 1.
Market Ticker has provided charts from the Federal Reserve that prove that Bernanke has withdrawn $125 billion from the banking system in the last 4 days alone to create a crisis situation that will incite credit market mayhem and increase the likelihood of passing the bill. This is coercion of the worst kind. [http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2008/09/24.html]Flash:Fed speaking out both sides of mouth
Where does that leave us? Well with the collapse of the Bush administration and the neo-con agenda, combined with the failure of McCain to catch on, the Republican Party is as broken as it has been in decades. Thus the move to save the markets and reassert control of the party in one fell swoop. By picking and choosing who survives and who doesn’t but gets bought out by treasury then sold to the big moneyed interests, means who had economic power in 2012 to back any potential candidate. If Wall Street thru Paulson gets its way neither Palin nor Huckabee is in the running, however Romney could get another shot backed by those who wanted him in the first place.
Which is why the republicans in the House rebelled and McCain tried to come to their rescue. Most of the republicans in the house come from “red” districts which include larger numbers of social conservative people who accept the need of the bomb, bomb, bomb, mentality. Here McCain and the house republicans have common ground even though neither really likes each other much. Given the past 7 years Wall Street wants the neo-cons to just go away, and the bible thumpers to vote for them and pay their bills on time.
Wall Street knows we can’t continue the attempt at worldwide hegemony, either in military or economic terms. Or military is over extended and broken and as the Georgia Crisis of early august shows the US can’t respond if it has to, which makes Wall Street nervous because they need the US military to keep their plundering of the planets resources and people intact. Wall street want the right wing agenda of the far right wing to go away and republicans in the mold of Eisenhower, Rockefeller and yes even Nixon to return(without Nixon’s crimes of course).
Why do I think this is what Paulson is attempting instead of fixing the economic mess the political ideology of the right has created? Well for one thing the vast size of the problem compared to the size of the proposed solution.
World derivative contracts have passed 370 trillion dollars compared to a total world real wealth of around 170 trillion dollars, in other words there isn’t enough real world wealth to pay off half of the derivatives, WHEN they come due.
Add to that this [http://www.denninger.net/letters/mathematics.pdf[ math lesson on the bailout;
$700 billion dollars is 2.16% of all non-financial private debt and 7% of all household debt. Provision of this credit line therefore would allow removal of a maximum of just over 2% of the current nonfinancial private debt from the banking system, assuming only US domiciled debt is included.
If the imminent failure of the United States financial system is going to be averted by 2.16% (maximum) of the outstanding private non-financial debt being removed from the banks' hands and transferred to the taxpayer as the "responsible party", then the system is under leverage of 46.29:1.
If, as many have projected, the actual losses to be sustained are $2.5-3 trillion in residential housing and a like amount among commercial real estate, credit cards and LBO loans, then the aggregate requirement is not $700 billion it is in the neighborhood of five to nine times what has been requested. If this is the case the aggregate requirement is double the US Federal Budget. The government cannot raise that amount.
In short order the solution ain’t gonna make a real dent in the problem. However it will carry it down the street to a Obama Administration, and make sure the institutions and people Paulson doesn’t want to fail are saved. Combine that with the fact Paulson gets to take the party back from the right wingers who have destroyed it, the country’s economy and foreign policy, and you could come to the conclusion Hank is probably quite proud of himself. And of course, he did it all with your money.
Heck of a job Hank.
Okay, now I updated the blog post about what happened on our show Friday. I got into a fight with the RNC..
ReplyDeleteAlso, the prize for last week's contest is an original comedy DVD sent to you. Hope you enjoy it.
Thanks for your comments.... :)
Sara - thank you! Yes those are my kids when they were little. Now they are 12 and 14!
ReplyDeleteAnd Octavian - thanks for checking in!
Bart, my older son is taking regular PE and they are swimming 4 times a week. but he dropped out of Cross Country running. He refused. I tried everything to get him to do the team but he HATES running 6 miles a day. He's a musician/film maker and Gate - gifted type - so he is not a sports type.
ReplyDeleteI guess I should force him to try out for track or tennis in the spring.
But you should try to force a kid this age to do anything.
A cattle prod might work.
He took Karate from age 3-8, then refused to go anymore once he got his Black belt.
ReplyDeleteThey just figgered out what palin’s problem is, she has a 486 mind in a duo core-broad band world and when they try programming her with neo-con speak her little hard drive keeps freezing up.
ReplyDeleteNot enuf RAM, not enuf ROM, and a processor which gets stuck on stupid all the time.
Lydia said...
ReplyDeleteI guess I should force him to try out for track or tennis in the spring.
But you should try to force a kid this age to do anything.
A cattle prod might work.
LOL, yea, it might, ha ha.
No I agree you shouldn't force him to do anything. I'd try to get him back into Karate though. If the school is good and oriented toward youth then it will instill some good principles in him and help with the changes he's going to experience now that he's coming of age.
Lots of young men don't react well to the onset of high levels of testosterone, and tend to lash out at others around them, and often end up in trouble of some sort. What he was like at 9 or 10 is not what he's going to be like at 16.
Karates a good way to deal with it. In fact its one of the best. So is weight lifting. You might get him a weight set for the home.
I'm only offering suggestions because you said something on the blog there and because I used to work with troubled youth.
Lydia Cornell said...
ReplyDeleteLydia said...
Also, the prize for last week's contest is an original comedy DVD sent to you. Hope you enjoy it.
Thanks for your comments.... :)
Hey cool!
Thats cool he's a Black Belt already though. When they learn at that young age its natural to them, and they can get good.
ReplyDeleteI'd encourage him to go for his Second Dan.
The bailout bill is dead, which I predict means that National City will fail within the next 48 hours.
ReplyDeleteWe tried to tell people, years ago, that this was coming. The 'tards, being 'tards, insisted that draining all the wealth of the country and handing it to a few of Chimpy's rich cronies was going to result in unending prosperity, even though history is full of examples of what inevitably happens when too much wealth gets concentrated in too few hands.
Dang. We were right AGAIN.
JR, as USUAL.............we were right and the wingtards were DEAD WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING.
ReplyDeleteI KNOW i'm going to take some flak on this boards for saying this but i'm GLAD the bailout got shot down.............I was pretty strongly FOR IT with the oversite provisions, the relief for hoemeowners and the CEO pay caps but with the help for homeowners removed by the greedy repugs and the CEO pay caps gutted and less effective its doomed to failure and I cant support it.
ReplyDeleteJim Kramer said the DOW will drop to 8000 and I think he's right look out below.
Lydia Bart is SPOT ON with his recommending weight lifting, martial arts, rock climbing etc...........I wouldnt rule out team sports like football or force your kids to do anything they really dont like...........But Bart is 100% right they provide a positive release of testosterone, needed physical activity and a sense of accomppishment...........I remember I got my first weight set in 7th grade and I lived in my basement for 2-3 hours a a day almost and by 8th grade I was 6 inches taller, gained 40-50 pounds of muscle and went from benching 70 pounds to 240 pounds.
ReplyDeleteI KNOW what your saying though about kids being embarrassed my their mother coddling them or talking femine to them though, I visited my best friend in Buffalo this Summer and his son is the same age as your kids and he was playing the PS3 online and his mom kissed him goodnight and said she loved him and he was angry and mortified because all his online friends heard and were making fun of him.............I thought it was funny..........but obviously he didnt.............kids that age dont like to be coddled Barts right its a natural and healthy phenomenon.
ReplyDeleteI think Clif's right I think Paulson wantedc to use this bailout to control which firms live and dye and gain and cement political power in the repug party.............I cant support the bailout in its present form i'm GLAD it failed.
ReplyDeleteLydia, is your son REALLY a black belt at age 8 or were you kidding?
ReplyDeleteHey Octavian, good to see you again!
ReplyDeleteLydia your a cool mom and will likely expose your kids to lots of interesting things including travel hobbies and sports/exercise and thats all you can do.............kids grow up I know this wont likely cheer you up but from 12-25 I thought parents were uncool and was ALWAYS out doing something.
ReplyDeleteBTW, you could always consider motorcycles there a ton of cool woods and desert terain to ride dirt bikes in California.
ALl that had to happen was the house to do its job.
ReplyDeleteIdiots like that crum darrell Issa are busy making speeches while the down crashes worse than on 911.
Good job house republicans.
You just broke the countries back you stupid, mutherf$#kers.
The dow crashed more than it did on 911. BILLIONS in wealth were lost in one day. Banks have seized up lending today and the European markets convulsed with the news as the whole world starts to crash.
ReplyDeleteAll they had to do was put through the bill.
And the house republicans shot it down, breaking the countries bank and mine.
FU@$#@#$KING IDIOTS!
Does anyone have any idea how many peoples retirements were just WIPED OUT???
ReplyDeleteHow many fortunes and life savings GONE!!!???!!!
The dow dropped 777 points, further than it did on 911! The worst crash we've ever seen in our lifetimes.
So much devastation over one stupid fu@#king vote.
Who CARES whats in the F@KING BILL???
As long as it bails out our banking industry we can worry about the other shit later!!!!
We don't need to make everything about this one f@#@#KING BILL.
We need to BAIL OUT THE F##$K#$ING BANKS BEFORE ALL OF OUR MONEY IS GONE!!!
STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID MUT#%A#%HER F#$A#$KERS!
ReplyDelete"And the house republicans shot it down,..."
ReplyDeleteLets not forget 40% of democrats voted against it too.
(or that they have the numbers to pass it WITHOUT the republicans help...)
Could it possibly be this whole thing stinks to high heaven and the Dems want the Republicans to be complicit in their crime?
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect Bart 95 Dems voted against the bill.Pelosi had to know what the rebubs were going to due.Doesnt she have any control.In my opinion shes as much to blame as anyone for the defeat.Shes the speaker of the damn house.
ReplyDeleteVoltron said...
ReplyDelete"And the house republicans shot it down,..."
Lets not forget 40% of democrats voted against it too
Oh shut up. It was supposed to be a 50/50 split. Thats the deal YOUR ASSHOLE CANDIDATE was supposed to have worked that he's been on television BRAGGING about ALL F$#@KING WEEKEND.
133 republicans voted against it. 95 democrats voted against it. They're both f@#ked up but the republicans are the MORE f@$#ked up.
"It was supposed to be a 50/50 split."
ReplyDeleteWould you be happier if 38 more Democrats had voted against it?
"Thats the deal YOUR ASSHOLE CANDIDATE was supposed to have worked..."
YOUR ASSHOLE CANDIDATE said McCain didn't deserve any credit for the deal at all.
As I recall Obama took all the credit for this one...LOL
Sorry guys but people are losing real money here. I'm losing money here. Not a "few bucks". Peoples life savings are being lost because of the PARTISAN POLITICS BULLSHIT!
ReplyDeleteMcCain said he was going to rally his base. He ralled a third of them. Obama rallied 2 thirds of his people.
Do you understand what happened today?
Next week you might not have any money. You ok with that? You ok with your ATM card not working?
Get it together people. Write your congressmen. Complain. Do something. MAKE congress pass a bill. They have to pass a bill to bail out the banks or we're all screwed.
Voltron said...
ReplyDeleteAs I recall Obama took all the credit for this one...LOL
Yea? Then you're stupid as your are ugly, because Obama isn't the one who made a GIGANTIC STINK over "SUSPENDING HIS CAMPAIGN" to RACE BACK TO WASHINGTON to "RALLY THE REPUBLICANS" to vote for the bill.
Obama wasn't the one on television yesterday bragging about how he had rallied the republicans to vote for this thing.
You're one stupid f#$ker, you really are.
This is good for you guys Bart.
ReplyDeleteYou guys have the numbers to pass it without us.
The Dems can just say "to hell with the Republicans, we're going to save the American people ourselves".
And come election day think how good they'll look, "WE SAVED YOU. THE REPUBLICANS WOULDN'T".
You'd be HEROES!
The MAJORITY of the democrats voted for the bill.
ReplyDeleteThe MAJORITY of the republicans voted AGAINST the bill.
Do the math dimwits.
Voltron said...
ReplyDeleteThis is good for you guys Bart.
oh go f@#k yourself you stupid right wing partisan idiot.
This isn't partisan. Its get it done time idiot. Obviously you have no f$#king money or you'd understand whats happening. You f@#king moron.
Quit talking to me sh$thead. I don't talk to babbling idiots.
Summing up the role he played in the bailout talks, McCain said: "I won't claim a bit of credit, if that makes 'em happy."
ReplyDeleteWASHINGTON -- Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said Sunday his Republican rival deserves no credit for helping to forge a tentative agreement on the $700 billion bailout of Wall Street.
Well BOTH of the candidates seem to disagree with you...
"This isn't partisan. Its get it done time idiot."
ReplyDeleteOK. You guys have the numbers. Get it done.
The Republican Economy
ReplyDeleteDOW January 19, 2001: 10,587.59
DOW September 29, 2008: 10,365.45
NASDAQ Jan 19, 2001 = 2770.38
NASDAQ September 29, 2008 = 1983.73
S&P 500 - January 19, 2001: 1354.95
S&P 500 - September 29, 2008: 1106.39
CPI, January 19, 2001: 175
CPI, September 29, 2008: 219
Dollar exchange with Euro, January 19, 2001: 1.068
Dollar exchange with Euro, September 29, 2008: .695
National Debt During 8 Clinton Years: Increased $1.3 Trillion to $6T
National Debt During 8 Bush II Years: Increased $4.2 Trillion to $10T
PSSVP*, September 17, 1787 - January 19, 2001 - 1
PSSVP*, January 19, 2001 - September 29, 2008 - 1
* People Shot by Sitting Vice President
heck of a job wingnuts and the bozo you worshiped until even the kool aid didn't work so good anymore.
"Get it together people. Write your congressmen. Complain. Do something."
ReplyDeleteThey are Bart. From what I've read it's going 10 to 1 AGAINST the bailout...
OK. You guys have the numbers. Get it done.
ReplyDelete.... how typically reich wing of duncetron,
.... they screw everything in sight up,
.... then tell others to fix it.
"PSSVP*, September 17, 1787 - January 19, 2001 - 1
ReplyDeletePSSVP*, January 19, 2001 - September 29, 2008 - 1
* People Shot by Sitting Vice President"
Gee Clif, I thought you guys WANTED to get back to our founding fathers...
sorta like they have others fight for THEIR freedom
ReplyDeleteYo bozo Aaron Burr ain't really thought of as a founding father.
ReplyDeleteNext you will be tellin' us all if the Clenis hadn't gotten a blowjob, the economy would have been fine today.
ReplyDeleteOr how Barney franks prevented Alan Greenspan from doing his job in 1994.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe you'll pull a Lou Dobbs - Michelle Malkin and blame the Mexicans,
ReplyDelete".... how typically reich wing of duncetron,
ReplyDelete.... they screw everything in sight up,
.... then tell others to fix it."
Well Clif the Republicans are EVIL. The Democrats are good and as pure as the driven snow.
The American people NEED this. You guys are their protectors, and it's in your power. You just gotta fix it...
You just gotta fix it...
ReplyDelete... cause all wingnuts are good for is screwing everything up RIGHT?
If I remember right the last time wingnuts held the regulatory authority in Washington in the 1980's they caused a bank failure, but Georgie has always tried to out do his Poppy ain't he duncetron?
ReplyDeleteLooks like when you allow the repubies to NOT regulate things they go to hell in a hand basket right quick.
ReplyDeleteTwo for two so far
It seems not only are republicans damn liars,
ReplyDeleteand wrong about most everything,
they are also incompetent to boot.
Screw up two wars, lose a city and now it seems they are on the verge of topping Hoover.
ReplyDeleteheck of a job wingnuts and the stupid sheeple who back ya.
ReplyDelete"Or how Barney franks prevented Alan Greenspan from doing his job in 1994."
ReplyDeleteCliffy, CONGRESS and the FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD are two DIFFERENT and independent entities.
Greenspan DID come out against the Freddie/Fannie debacle in 2005. (and may have earlier, I just haven't looked)
OFHEO (the regulators of freddie/fannie) also tried to warn the congress but we're called partisan by democrats. Franks among them.
How many innocent americans lost their retirement money in 401K's the past week while both parties played politics.You would think both would now understand why the congressional approval rating is under 20%.How many of these elected officals from both parties were more concerned about holding on to their seats next month.I dont know how the rest of you feel but these people make me sick.
ReplyDeleteNot to kick a dog when he's down, but...
ReplyDelete"How many of these elected officals from both parties were more concerned about holding on to their seats next month."
ReplyDeleteYou mean they must think that the people who vote for them are against this bill?
"I dont know how the rest of you feel but these people make me sick."
Yes, congressmen who give consideration to what their voters think would make you sick...
Voltron said...
ReplyDeleteOK. You guys have the numbers. Get it done.
You still don't get it. Its not you guys are us guys its all of us, and the republicans are the majority holding it up. The dems who are against it need to get their shit together too.
If you're against the bailout then go ahead dumbass. When your ignorant ass is standing in line to get out 60 cents on the dollar out of your bank account let me know how life is. When your layed off from your job dumbass, let me know how it is.
Stupid partisan dumbass.
"You still don't get it. Its not you guys are us guys its all of us, and the republicans are the majority holding it up."
ReplyDeleteNo, YOU still don't get it. The MAJORITY belongs to the democrats.
You don't NEED the republicans.
The democrats are holding it up because they don't WANT to go it alone. They could pass any bill they wanted and there's NOTHING the republicans could do to stop them.
Newt just nailed it on Greta.
ReplyDeleteThe SEC could suspend "mark to market" first thing tomorrow morning. They don't need congress for that.
The valuations would go back up and liquidity would return.
Try it for two weeks. See what happens. If it doesn't work you can always re-instate it.
Dolty,youre way off base on this one.How many house members have held their positions for over 10 years?The founders made the house a two year term for a reason,so people from all walks of like would get involved in their government.So farmers and shopkeeps alike could go to Washington.Now you have people who have been there for 40 years.As soon as their election is over they start raising money and campaigning for re-election.So please dont give me crap like their giving consideration to their voters.Bullshit.
ReplyDeleteAll the vast majority of them care about is holding on to their seat.
ReplyDelete"All the vast majority of them care about is holding on to their seat."
ReplyDeleteYes, and how exactly do they hold on to their seat?
Somebodies gotta vote for them right?
So obviously they must be pandering to their voters, no?
That MUST mean they think their voters don't want this bill...
Bullshit said
ReplyDeleteNo, YOU still don't get it. The MAJORITY belongs to the democrats.
You don't NEED the republicans.
Bullshit. Its a risky deal the way it was written and they all know it so neither party wants full responsibility. They agreed over the weekend on a 50/50 split and then the republicans backed out.
Not all the dems are dems. Many of them are Lieberdems and by the way shithead, I aint no democrat so go F#@k yourself.
It AINT partisan. There needs to be enough people on both sides to give a rats ass about the people, and the mutherfa43kers don't because c0cksuckers like you support this bullshit.
"Its a risky deal the way it was written and they all know it so neither party wants full responsibility."
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY!
So let's write one LESS risky.
I just KNEW with a little coaching I could get you "intellectuals" to understand this.
ReplyDeleteI don't care what they do just pass the damn bill. They don't want oversight? Find. Just make it work and who gives a shit? But what you don't understand is real wealth is being lost while these guys screw around like a bunch of monkey's fu@$#king a football.
ReplyDeleteJust PASS THE DAMN THING ALREADY.
If they want no oversight fine. Make it work and we'll figure it out later. But we need to back our securities and show the world we know what the hell we're doing over here.
Figure it out and PASS THE DAMN THING.
Dolty doesnt understand unless money is made available thru credit the economy is going to grind to a halt.Forget the 5% bad mortgages out there, all business run on credit and money or lines of credit must be available to them and quickly or a 20% unemployment rate could very well become a reality.
ReplyDeleteActually I think you'll find the republicans will be on board with more oversight.
ReplyDeleteThey've been calling for the regulators of freddie/fannie to have more authority since at least 2004.
Newt's plan was this:
1. Fire Paulson.
2. Suspend "mark to market" for a two week trial. Make it permanent IF it works. (the SEC could do this tomorrow morning before the bell, congress is not needed)
3. NO giveaways. Make it a loan that they have to pay back over a period of years.
4. Make them take out insurance on the loans at treasury + 2%.
5. (this one's mine) Implement Shays call in 2004 to give regulators more power over freddie/fannie.
I'd be on board with that. How about you?
"Dolty doesnt understand unless money is made available thru credit the economy is going to grind to a halt."
ReplyDeleteDolty understands fine. Just don't GIVE it to them. LEND it, with interest, and then ONLY as much as needed. (somebody else here already pointed out that the 700 billion figure was a made up number)
Why string up the taxpayers who weren't responsible? Make the people responsible for the mess pay for it.
Here, try to bore the hole a little deeper into your skull and see if this penetrates.
ReplyDeleteFor years the congress has been handing Bush billions without oversight. Hell we're going to be coming up to a trillion on the Iraq war alone soon.
So why the hell, in the middle of an economic crisis when Americans are losing their shirts, does congress suddenly care so much about giving him another 700 billion?
Why now?
Why all of a sudden we can't give Bush any more money?
His presidency's over. They've been giving it to him all along.
Another 700 billion to keep the dollar solvent ain't going to make it that much worse.
Because we're not giving it to Bush.
ReplyDeleteWe're giving it to a Goldman Sachs guy (paulson) who just gave AIG a huge bailout which Goldman Sachs owns 20% of.
Also, there IS a paper trail here that someone is going to be left holding the bag on.
And THOSE people want company BADLY.
I'd really like to hear the old guy and Obama both tell america if they are elected what programs they are either going to cut or what new ones are going on the back burner due to the 700 billion in added debt.
ReplyDeleteDolty continues to try and make this political.I dont think he realizes how serious the situation is.Everyone Ive talked to are saying they have never seen anything like this.This isnt a blip.
ReplyDeleteWhat consolation does Dolty have for the WaMu employees who had their 401K's tied to the company they worked for?Last summer the stock was over $16 last week it was 16 cents.Tell them to make it political.
ReplyDeleteCC,
ReplyDeleteIt was made political a LONG time ago.
If the politics involved aren't solved we'll be right back here again in a few years.
In the 80's it took 20 billion. Today they want 700 billion. What do you think it'll cost the next time, and will we be able to buy our way out of that one?
And don't tell me we'll fix the politics later. We WON'T. We never have yet.
The way this bill was written, it was like giving protection money to the mob. We would be rewarding the people that caused the problem AND giving them political cover by making ourselves accomplices.
We need to make sure we do the RIGHT thing even IF that means a depression. Doing the WRONG thing now will screw us even worse later.
Voltron said...
ReplyDeleteActually I think you'll find the republicans will be on board with more oversight.
They've been calling for the regulators of freddie/fannie to have more authority since at least 2004.
Newt's plan was this:
1. Fire Paulson.
2. Suspend "mark to market" for a two week trial. Make it permanent IF it works. (the SEC could do this tomorrow morning before the bell, congress is not needed)
3. NO giveaways. Make it a loan that they have to pay back over a period of years.
4. Make them take out insurance on the loans at treasury + 2%.
5. (this one's mine) Implement Shays call in 2004 to give regulators more power over freddie/fannie.
I'd be on board with that. How about you?"
I'd be on board with MOST of that providing we are talking real oversite and provided the financial institutions are adaquately capitalized..............the problem is regardless of whether you do a bailout or what your saying you have to help homeowners stay solvent as well because if there are MORE forclosures the values of homes will plummet FURTHER causing the value of the mortgage assets to fall and causing the financial institutions to NOT be adaquately capitalized to loan..................and that will effect jobs and if it takes on a life of its own we could have 25% unemployment.
What people are failing to grasp is there atr TWO ends to this you CANT JUST prop up the finanial institutions without helping the homeowners on Mainstreet as well because if the rate of forclosures doubles the value of houses will CONTINUE to plummet and THAT will cause the financial institutions to have to write down and to pawn off MORE toxic mortgages to the gov to be able to have the capital to lend and we will likely need ANOTHER trillion and Another..........you have to address BOTH sides of the equation IF you are going to do a bailout or else the bailout WONT WORK and we will have thrown 700 billion down a black hole.
ReplyDeleteI dont understand just what youre suggesting Mike.How do you help homeowners in jeopardy?You cant just pay their mortgage.If you lower their interest rate you have to lower all of them.If you give them a grace period,how long do you make it?What about someone else who is on the edge?
ReplyDeleteLook, I have a good amount of money in the Stock market, my life savings are there and so are my parents and i'll STILL come out and say its NOT the job of the federal reserve or the government to prop up the stock market............Greenspan started that crap of feeding and appeasing the market EVERYtime they cry and throw a tantrum and THATS brought about many of the imbalances that have caused this crisis and other bubbles.
ReplyDeleteSome of what Volt is saying could be workable and sounds reasonable I wouldnt automatically discount it because he's a partisan repug................that said as much as helping some of the reckless homeowners is repugnant i think he need to do it to stabilize housing values...........we can help responsible or those taken advantage of by predatory loans more but if things keep imploding they can take on a life of their pwn and we can have 25% unemployment just like the Great Depression.
I think firing Paulson and Bernanke would be a start and making the financial industry pay some of these loans back instead of tax payers sounds reasonable if there is real oversite and if homeowners are provided assistance and real estate prices are stabilized.
You can lower the interest rates and write off say 20% of the principle so people have an equity stake and reason to want to keep their home rather than allow it to be forclosed on.
ReplyDeleteThat would BOTH lower peoples mortgage payments and give them more money to spend to prop up the economy and give them an equity stake and reason to want to keep their home and not let it fall into forclosure.
ReplyDeleteHow do you pick the homeowners that get the break?
ReplyDeleteLower interest rates for everyone or just the people in trouble?
ReplyDeleteI dont think you can just pick out a group of people who got in trouble for what ever reason be it preditory lenders or their own stupidity and say O.K. this is the person we will bail out.What if one is white and one is black,who do you pick?
ReplyDeleteOnce you show partiality to a certain group I think you just open yourself up for more problems.I dont have an answer for the current situation but its good to hear ideas.
ReplyDeleteN
ReplyDeletecosmiccowboy said...
I dont think you can just pick out a group of people who got in trouble for what ever reason be it preditory lenders or their own stupidity and say O.K. this is the person we will bail out.What if one is white and one is black,who do you pick?"
Nice strawman argument you got there cowboy I NEVER said to just pick a group to bailout..........thats the PAULSON plan not mine where he gets to deide what Companies to save and what ones to let die...........my plan included no such arbitrary whimsical terms..............nice try though to try to make it appear that way.
I have a few friends who are very wise in the ways of the market and all are unanimous when they say this is something we have never seen before.The savings and loan fix in the 80s was kids play compared to this.
ReplyDeleteNo strawman Mike,just asking how can this work?Who gets bailed out?I guess im just jaded.Id hate to see some jackass with a two million dollar home getting his interest rate lowered and 20% of his principle paid off.You know politicians as well as I do,I just dont want someones political buddy getting a sweet deal while joe blow gets screwed.
ReplyDeleteThe two causes of Depressions are excessive debt an uneven distribution of wealth we nEED to fix both of those in order to fix the imbalances in the economy and helping homeowners to give them an ewquity stake is the best way to do it or real estate values will plummet more causing the morgage assets to be written off again and again and causing further liquidity crisis's where banks dont have capital to loan and people are too indebted to want to borrow and THAT causes job losses and Depressions............we need to stop thinking short term and trying to prop up the system or the quick fix we need to treat the source and not the symptoms.
ReplyDeleteDont you think theres a point where houses reach their actual value?I mean why value a home at $750,000 when its actually worth 300?Isnt that what caused this problem to begin with.We cant artifically inflate housing prices.That being said if there isnt a quick loosning of credit things are going to get bad in a hurry.
ReplyDeletecosmiccowboy said...Id hate to see some jackass with a two million dollar home getting his interest rate lowered and 20% of his principle paid off."
ReplyDeleteWell so would I, since i've been responsible paying MY mortgage................but sometimes you need to put aside personal feelings and look at the greater good...........and propping up housing values bu giving these people an incentive to keep their homes rather than letting them slip into forclosure MAY be the ONLY way to avert another GREAT DEPRESSION................its simple supply and demant if there are 10 people looking to buy a house and only one available it may be worth a million dollars, however if because of ecxessive debt and forclosures there are only 4 people looking to buy 6 houses then the same home may only be worth a h=undred thousand dollars............we NEED to keep forclosures from rising substantially regardless of how personally repugnant that may be.
You can bail out the banks all you want but at the end of the day if the forclosure rate doubles they will need bailing out all over again and then some you have to stop the vicious circle before it starts and a baailout of just the banks wont accomplish that.
cosmiccowboy said...
ReplyDeleteDont you think theres a point where houses reach their actual value?I mean why value a home at $750,000 when its actually worth 300?Isnt that what caused this problem to begin with.We cant artifically inflate housing prices.That being said if there isnt a quick loosning of credit things are going to get bad in a hurry."
My plan included writing down the value of the homes/mortgage to give the homeowner equity and your right things WILL get bad in a hurry if credit doesnt loosen up that doesnt mean we should panic and jump at a plan that wont work and if there isnt oversite or relief for homeowners the bailout WONT WORK.
I agree 100%,there is stupidity in signing an agreement that will be useless in 5 years but something has to be done quickly.In my opinion not to fix 5% of the countrys mortgages but to free up credit and I mean now,Im here to say if credit isnt available to not only americas businesses but the gereral population a 20% unemployment rate will be the norm for years.
ReplyDeleteNow heres something to chew on Japans Nikkei dropped 4.6% at openeing.Japan has the worlds 2nd largest economy.Lets have some more partisan bickering,lets point the finger at each other.Id love to know just how many economist are elected to the house,nothing like having some former insurance salesman having a vote on the worlds economy.
ReplyDeletePLEASE PASS THIS LEGISLATION. STOP THE BLEEDING FIRST!
ReplyDeleteCourts Allow Early Voting Week in Ohio
ReplyDeleteGonna make Ohio much harder to STEAL again.
Newt's plan was this:
ReplyDelete1. Fire Paulson.
Why he wasn't at Treasury when the problem was created, John Snow was, just like Ben Bernanke wasn't at the FED Alan Greenspan was.
I suppose firing Bernanke will undo Greenspan's damage also?
Firing Paulson won't help because then you gotta STOP everything and hold hearings to get a replacement, which means NOT until after the election, when congress returns, 5 weeks from now when the economy would have been flushed and sliding down the sewers,
Talk about creating havoc in the markets, the firing of Paulson at this time would be sending nuclear signals to Wall Street, with everyone dumping as fast as they can.
BTW who they gonna get as a replacement?
Phil Gramm?
Newt is dumber then a box of rocks on this one.
He hasn't given a very good start for his very partisan dumb approach.
2. Suspend "mark to market" for a two week trial.
Right go BACK to fairy tale land so the economic crisis can be covered up AGAIN like it was during most of Bush's time in incompetence in office.
Make it permanent IF it works. (the SEC could do this tomorrow morning before the bell, congress is not needed)
Hiding the truth ALWAYS works for the right wing. Mark to market forces the sellers to admit the REAL worth of what they have, Newt's approach allows the lies and deception which got us here in the first place to continue.
3. NO giveaways.
Good KBR, Halliburton, Carlyle, GE, Boeing, General Dynamics, Blackwater can start giving back their give-aways too. Then all the Bush cronies and cheney cronies, followed by the free handouts the right wing congress gave to K Street. That would produce "enuf" money to bail out the mess and settle quite a bit of the debt.
Make it a loan that they have to pay back over a period of years.
Well the fed is "loaning" as much money as they can, and things ain't recovering because it isn't a lack of liquidity in the markets, it is the lack of confidence or trust between banks which has caused this crusis.
No bank TRUSTS another bank because of the fairy tale CDO's SIV's and credit swaps they hold, the "bailout" was supposed to remove THAT and restore confidence.
But republicans don't seem to understand this for some reason, other wise they wouldn't be fighting for something which won't work.
4. Make them take out insurance on the loans at treasury + 2%.
You CAN"T have insurance without the real VALUE of what is being insured being known, thus this idea is in DIRECT contradiction to the second idea, but then again consistency was never Newts strong point, and his cheating while trying to impeach the Clenis for cheating shows in spades.
BTW a loan at 2% is a give away, given the toxic nature of the holdings the banks have. Then again it is Newt's slimy attempt at MORE corporate welfare.
and now for the dumb idea duncetron came up with;
5. (this one's mine) Implement Shays call in 2004 to give regulators more power over freddie/fannie.
So the Bush crony can IGNORE this regulation just like they ignored the rest,
Like Greenspn REFUSED the call in 1994 to regulate mortgages which would have prevented ALL OF THIS?
Fannie and Freddie DIDN'T create the SIV,s, CDO's or credit swaps, which are at the heart of the crisis, it is a dishonest reich wing talking point which coming from YOU is expected.
the banks refused to do their JOB and decide which loans were good and which should never happen because they could use SIV's CDO's and credit default swaps to sell the toxic junk to others and set up more loans by REFUSING to do due diligence.
See the banks have to APPROVE the loans, which means they could heave prevented the entire mess if they did their job in the first place, OR Greenspan had set regulations which prevented them from refusing to do their job.
BUT Nooooo, the reich wing wants the lassie fair attitude to be dominant which meant NOBODY was watching to make sure good loans got done and bad ones rejected.
Thus the republican mantra is the root of this mess and NEWT was the main force for much of it when it happened.
Nice try at spinnin' reich wing talking point of the day.
Mike said...
ReplyDeleteLook, I have a good amount of money in the Stock market, my life savings are there and so are my parents and i'll STILL come out and say its NOT the job of the federal reserve or the government to prop up the stock market............
Well you can say it but you're wrong. If there ever was a job of the Federal govt its the stable economy of the people it governs and the ensuring of the value of their currency.
And history has proven me right, and you wrong on this. The Federal govt has bailed out the markets successfully several times, and each time the effect was widespread and returned the economy to growth instead of recession.
It is the job of the federal govt to ensure our economic stability as a nation and not passing this bill today was irresponsible and stupid, and cost millions of people, billions of dollars.
You can talk to me about losing whatever you have but if you had lost your life savings today you wouldn't be so relaxed. Some of us have lost 10's of thousands of dollars or more, and not just in the stock market. I personally am down 100 grand. 100 grand I didn't have to lose, so I could care less about your credit card you just got or the few thousand you may have lost on a stock.
People are losing everything here Mike, and we can't afford as Lydia said, to let the country "bleed" while people make speeches and talk about oversight that even if it were written in would never amount to anything anyway.
The time to act was today, and not acting was irresponsible and ignorant.
And Clif you're wrong. This has little to do with defaulted loans and instead has to do with mismanaged profits and interest on Sub Primes and ARM loans.
ReplyDeleteI've looked at the foreclosure figures and the ones people are quoting are inaccurate and overinflated. The fact is only about 1 percent of all loans written last year went into actual foreclosure, up from half a percent the previous year, so yes, while one could say "defaults doubled", the fact is its still a drop in the bucket compared to the good loans, and therefore the securities are basicaly sound.
People are just pulling out because of all the fear hype being sold by congress and being eaten up by folks like you. Don't buy it. Its not true. The mortgages are not the issue. The issue is losing backing for securities backed by mortages and thus we need to back them ourselves, which the 700 billion was supposed to do.
So we need to pass a bill now, and bail these banks out and quit helping the congress sell their fear hype.
The hype about the defaults is just fearmongering trying to blame the crisis on minorities and the poor, so as to return to the days when only white people and really wealthy blacks could own their own home.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is the only numbers out there are ones we expected, and they all center around the subprime market. We back the loans, we stabilize the economy.
Bart the amount of money tied up in credit defualt swaps DWARF's the sub prime mess by more than a magnitude of 10.
ReplyDeleteIn the US, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency reported the notional amount on outstanding credit derivatives from reporting banks to be $16.4 trillion at the end of March, 2008.
vs
The value of U.S. subprime mortgages was estimated at $1.3 trillion as of March 2007,
The credit default swaps were a good" idea as long as prices rose because the default couldn't happen because the value rose against the obligations so every one made money and nobody called for full payment.
Once the sub-prime collapse started the CDS started losing their "value" but the obligation was still there.
United States non-financial private debt is $32.4 trillion dollars and household debt is $10.0 trillion as of 2Q 2008. This encompasses mortgages, auto loans, credit cards, HELOCs, commercial and industrial loans, LBO monies outstanding and all other forms of non-financial (e.g. not including margin loans and similar) debt.
Lots of this debt is starting to go bad because the slow down is starting to affect everyone.
Remember world derivative contracts have passed 370 trillion dollars, and the banks don't know who hold nuclear levels debt vs just toxic levels of debt.
The bailout would have started to fix the mess but;
If, as many have projected, the actual losses to be sustained are $2.5-3 trillion in residential housing and a like amount among commercial real estate, credit cards and LBO loans, then the aggregate requirement is not $700 billion it is in the neighborhood of five to nine times what has been requested
Now compare the projected losses to the CDO debt which is turning toxic at best, and you might understand why;
Yes we needed the bailout to start cleaning it up, BUT much more is needed.
Either a Japan style deliberate funding of the economy for years until it can be unwound, or even a return to the FDR approach, ALL OF IT.
Which is what the republicans are fighting tooth and nail against, they know if we have to accept the Japan model or return to the FDR style approach they will be revealed as the charlatans they always were.
Because then they have nothing but bible thumping and Bomb, Bomb, Bomb to run their campaigns on ....... and broke Americans won't "buy" that.
BTW Nuri al Maliki wants to help;
ReplyDelete"If I had enough funds to assist the American economy, I would do all that I can. But unfortunately Iraq cannot solve America's economic problems.
"But what Iraq can do is take up more responsibility security-wise here inside Iraq. And I have told the Americans repeatedly that we are ready to take up responsibility here in Iraq so there are less losses, a decreased number of American lives lost, and I am prepared to present this case before the American people. ...'
He wants our troops home by the end of 2010, Bush and McCain want the troops to stay, MUCH LONGER, at the price of 100-150 billion a year ......... and we can no longer afford that.
comiccowboy really asks some patently stupid questions. Since those questions are stupid, they don't really deserve any serious attention.
ReplyDeleteActually, we might be within days of a serious withdrawal from Iraq, depending on how the currency and bond markets go.
ReplyDeleteThe Russians can tell you all about how hard it is to yank your people out once you're broke.
BARTLEBEE said...
ReplyDeleteMike said...
Look, I have a good amount of money in the Stock market, my life savings are there and so are my parents and i'll STILL come out and say its NOT the job of the federal reserve or the government to prop up the stock market............
Well you can say it but you're wrong. If there ever was a job of the Federal govt its the stable economy of the people it governs and the ensuring of the value of their currency.
And history has proven me right, and you wrong on this. The Federal govt has bailed out the markets successfully several times, and each time the effect was widespread and returned the economy to growth instead of recession.
It is the job of the federal govt to ensure our economic stability as a nation and not passing this bill today was irresponsible and stupid, and cost millions of people, billions of dollars.
You can talk to me about losing whatever you have but if you had lost your life savings today you wouldn't be so relaxed. Some of us have lost 10's of thousands of dollars or more, and not just in the stock market. I personally am down 100 grand. 100 grand I didn't have to lose, so I could care less about your credit card you just got or the few thousand you may have lost on a stock.
Well I CERTAINLY agree with you that it IS the job of the government to create a stabile economy and to protect and insure the value of the currency unfortunately your looking at things one dimensinally because as I have said before we are walking a tightrope on one side is TRYING to stabilize our financial system by printing the money to bailout the ailing financial institutions so there arent runs on the banks and on the other side is protecting the value of our currency so foreign investors dont flee US markets because of a declining dollar.............they are two opposite sides of the same coin that could eventually lead to the same place.
Bottom line the smart foreign capital is fleeing the US and like Clif said this is BIGGER than just subprime the CDO's, regular mortgages, Home Equity Loans, credit cars etc.. will ALSO be revalued and go into the same type of default as the subprime and require bailouts if we dont do something to help homeowners and prop up housing values.
If you DONT help homeowners and stabilize housing values its like trying to put out a raging fire with a garden hose while someone at the other end is dumping gasoline on it...........IF the bailout went through WITHOUT helping homeowners and stabilizing homeprices it would be the worst of all worlds because it would not have a chance of working but would trash the dollar and rob the working class with massive inflation.
As for the Federal government bailing out the markets many times........THAT has created the very unnatural imbalances and distortions to the economy that are causing all of TODAYS problems, you CANT spend your way to prosperity more debt is the problem NOT the solution, firstly we are not experience ANY growth that is total BS the numbers for inflation and GDP are total fantasy numbers we have been in recession for MOST if not ALL of Bush's two terms and growth has been negative for essentially that entire time........... I've told this to Lydia several times and i'm sure you dont want to hear this but a recession is both neccessary and inevitable its a natural process and staving it off has created the distortions to the economy and excessive debt levels we now face, recessions are natural and neccessary processes that get rid of excessive debt and speculation and cause people to start saving and acting wisely once again............While I do not want a Depression and 25% unemployment a recession is inevitable and we may as well face it and get it over with.
Secondly while you may have MORE money than I because you are a little older and make a little more, and might have a little more proprtionally based on the ratio of years of salary in savings i'll bet you dont have THAT much more to lose than I do, I had about 5 years of salary in savings and home equity of almost a quarter million and i've probably lost about $50,000 dso to say I havent suffered any pain either is not true
Cosmic Cowboy=Voltron JR
ReplyDeleteOh and Lydia dont worry about that RNC jackass..............he was just LOOKING for an excuse to cut and run just like McSame was for the debates because they KNOW their empty talking points are discredited and no longer work with the American people.
ReplyDeletePres '08
ReplyDeleteSep 30 Rasmussen
Obama (D) 51%, McCain (R) 45%
Pres '08
Sep 30 Res. 2000
Obama (D) 51%, McCain (R) 41%
Congress
Sep 30 Res. 2000
Democrats 46%, Republicans 37%
Looks like the current crisis ain't workin' fur McInsane or the right wingers in congress.
(But McInsane told fake news he might suspend his campaign again, I wonder if it would actually hurt him in the polls?)
... heck after Thursday night it just might not matter anyway ....
In New Two-Minute Ad On Economy, Obama Frames Stakes Of Election
ReplyDeleteKinda put to rest the right wing lies about his tax plan don't it?
The Pelosi speech that made House Republicans cry
ReplyDeleteShe told the truth, and the right wingers in congress threw a temper tantrum, which resulted in Wall Street dropping like a stone.
The republicans in congress seem like a big bunch of WATB's .... cause THEY helped Bush, Greenspan, and their big moneyed backers to cause this crisis.
Now they are MAD cause she called them on it?
BOO frickin' HOO.
They need to grow up and pass the bill so ordinary Americans don't lose their shirt ..... or get sent packin' cause they refuse.
Now here's change we can believe in;
ReplyDeleteObama suggested increasing federal deposit insurance for families and small businesses who have money saved in US banks from 100,000 dollars to 250,000 dollars.
The Illinois senator said such a step would "boost small businesses, make our banking system more secure, and help restore public confidence in our financial system."
The current federal deposit insurance limit was set 28 years ago and has not been adjusted for inflation, he said.
The right wing has ignored the effects of inflation on this also, when they ran congress and the country into the ground.
Clif the repugs just used Pelosi as a scapegoat to vote AGAINST the bill................all they do is point fingers and act like whiny crybabies like Will does.
ReplyDeleteAnd it sure LOOKS like the repugs are going to get bounced right out of office on their asses.
ReplyDeleteDid you see McSame trying to pretend he is a leader when the bailout plan He crowed was going to pas BECAUSE of his magnificent "leadership failed"
ReplyDeleteHe's a leader in the GWB mold allright.
Too frickin' bad he didn't say this when he had the power to actually make it happen;
ReplyDeleteOlmert Says Israel Should Pull Out of West Bank
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in an interview published on Monday that Israel must withdraw from nearly all of the West Bank as well as East Jerusalem to attain peace with the Palestinians and that any occupied land it held onto would have to be exchanged for the same quantity of Israeli territory.
He also dismissed as “megalomania” any thought that Israel would or should attack Iran on its own to stop it from developing nuclear weapons, saying the international community and not Israel alone was charged with handling the issue.
In an unusually frank and soul-searching interview granted after he resigned to fight corruption charges — he remains interim prime minister until a new government is sworn in — Mr. Olmert discarded longstanding Israeli defense doctrine and called for radical new thinking, in words that are sure to stir controversy as his expected successor, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, tries to build a coalition.
“What I am saying to you now has not been said by any Israeli leader before me,” Mr. Olmert told the newspaper Yediot Aharonot in the interview on the occasion of the Jewish new year, observed from Monday evening till Wednesday evening. “The time has come to say these things.”
He said that traditional Israeli defense strategists had learned nothing from past experiences and that they seemed stuck in the considerations of the 1948 war of independence.
“With them, it is all about tanks and land and controlling territories and controlled territories and this hilltop and that hilltop,” he said. “All these things are worthless.”
He added, “Who thinks seriously that if we sit on another hilltop, on another hundred meters, that this is what will make the difference for the State of Israel’s basic security?”
Over the last year, Mr. Olmert has publicly castigated himself for his earlier right-wing views and he did so again in this interview. On Jerusalem, for example, he said: “I am the first who wanted to enforce Israeli sovereignty on the entire city. I admit it. I am not trying to justify retroactively what I did for 35 years. For a large portion of these years, I was unwilling to look at reality in all its depth.”
He said that maintaining sovereignty over an undivided Jerusalem, Israel’s official policy, would involve bringing 270,000 Palestinians inside Israel’s security barrier. It would mean a continuing risk of terrorist attacks against civilians like those carried out this year by Jerusalem Palestinian residents with front-end loaders.
“A decision has to be made,” he said. “This decision is difficult, terrible, a decision that contradicts our natural instincts, our innermost desires, our collective memories, the prayers of the Jewish people for 2,000 years.”
Like the right wingers and neo-cons, he refused to pony up to the TRUTH, till after he was no longer able to do anything about it.
Sounds like not only did they throw him out of the government but cut off the Zionist kool-aid to boot.
My only question is who is the first to accuse HIM of anti-semitism?
NOW a republican is calling the WATB's liars to boot;
ReplyDeleteShadegg: Pelosi's Speech Had Nothing to Do With Bailout Defeat
.... damn the right wing in congress seems to be melting down in ways like McInsane's campaign is.
clif said...
ReplyDeleteBart the amount of money tied up in credit defualt swaps DWARF's the sub prime mess by more than a magnitude of 10.
When I said defaults I was talking about defaults on mortgages and when you say "subprime mess" then quote a figure on actual loans to the industry you are confusing issues.
FACT.
About ONE percent of all US mortgages written last year went into default.
ONE percent.
1.
ONE.
O
N
E
ONE PERCENT.
:|
When you look at the REAL figures, instead of the hype, you'll see that the mortgage industry was fine until Congress froze up lending.
Its time to stop the hype.
Mike said...
ReplyDeleteWell I CERTAINLY agree with you that it IS the job of the government to create a stabile economy and to protect and insure the value of the currency unfortunately your looking at things one dimensinally
Actually no I'm looking at the whole ball of wax, but I am FOCUSING on the ONE aspect that matters here.
And thats backing mortgage backed securities, which the 700 billion was supposed to do.
Folks don't get it. They want to talk about all sorts of ways to stimulate the economy but unless they first back the mortgage securities none of the rest is going to work.
If foreign investors continue to pull out of US securites over the foreclosure hype, then mortgage backed securities will fail if we don't back them.
And if they fail, the banks, our banks, which invested our money in them, will also fail.
This isn't rocket science and its not my "opinion".
This is simple math. Arithmetic even.
We need to FIRST prop up the devalued securities to bring value back to them which will in turn shore up our banks, which will in turn unfreeze lending which will in turn stimulate economic growth.
Until we do that, the rest is just a lot of ado about nothing.
Either back the securities or get out your Bindell-Sticks.
Bart said "Folks don't get it. They want to talk about all sorts of ways to stimulate the economy but unless they first back the mortgage securities none of the rest is going to work.
ReplyDeleteIf foreign investors continue to pull out of US securites over the foreclosure hype, then mortgage backed securities will fail if we don't back them."
Ever consider those SAME foreign investors might ALSO pour out if they realize the dollar is being sacrificed to prop up OUR lending insitutions.............WHO IN THEIR RIGHT mind would invest in something if they knew their future earnings would be sacrificed because of a devalued currency.........printing money destroys the value of a currency.
Further unemployment has jumped to 6.1% a very sizable jump.................many are saying it will be at 7%-8% by the end of the year if it isnt allreadsy at 7%................is it not REASONABLE to assume that big jumps in unemployment coupled with increasing liquidity problems due to a declining dollar could cause a sizable increase in forclosures possibly a doubling or tripling which could very well requite another trillion dollar injection of capital down the road you have to address ALL the problems not just one symptom or else your just bailing water out of a leaking boat rather than actually patching the hole to make it sea worthy.
YOUR RIGHT that RIGHT NOW subprime is the main problem but if you dont help g=homeowners as well as lending institutions the bailout wont work..................i'm NOT against the bailout if there is a good plan in place with oversite and that has a chance to actually succeed then I strongly support it i've lost a LOT of Money the last year as well and I dont want to see 25% unemplopyment but I dont want to support a plan that doesnt do what its supposed to do and help the economy and instead robs the middle class and the taxpayers through a trashed dollar and inflation.............thats the worst of all worlds.
I supported this plan till the repugs compromised its efficacy by taking out the help for homeowners..............if all its going to do is flush money down the toilet and g=hurt the working class I cant support it................trust me the bailout will cause JUST AS MUCH foreign capital to flee as no bailout plan will.
When you look at the REAL figures, instead of the hype, you'll see that the mortgage industry was fine until Congress froze up lending.
ReplyDeleteCongress can't freeze lending, they have NO direct control
The FED can influence lending by trying to set interest rates but that doesn't always work.
The banks REFUSE to lend to each other because they can't figure out who is the next to fall.hold toxic debt some of which is sub prime lending, some commercial lending, but none know which has nuclear levels of that debt so they refuse to lend to each other which is why the Fed and central banks keep injecting liquidity with NO result.
they ALL
and NO hype, just a few facts the banks are using even if your not.
The banks all played craps with debt, and NOW they don't know which set of bluffs are real and which are jot.
ReplyDeleteThe banks REFUSE to lend to each other because they can't figure out who is the next to fall.
ReplyDeleteThey ALL hold toxic debt some of which is sub prime lending, some commercial lending, but none know which has nuclear levels of that debt so they refuse to lend to each other which is why the Fed and central banks keep injecting liquidity with NO result.
sorry but it got garbled for some reason
The banks have already injected over 700 billion world wide in the past year with NO result, because the banks just do not trust each other, end of story
ReplyDeleteBuying up the toxic debt will definitely help but it is FAR from solving the problems which afflict the economy.
ReplyDeleteSome of the problems dwarf the ability to spread enough cash around unless you want a Wiemar America.
clif said...
ReplyDeleteCongress can't freeze lending, they have NO direct control
Oh bullshit. TRY READING what I fucking write for a change.
Everyone in the mortgage industry knows congress froze it when they started investigations last year.
I wrote all about it and you ignored all of that with your stupid declaration about congress having no power.
Of COURSE they have power. All they have to do is order invesigtagions like they did last October and it all dries up. Just like they did in October.
You are wrong, and your bullshit is bullshit.
Ooops that last post is very misleading................I meant that last year I had a quater million dollar of assets when combining my stocks with my home equity.............I dont have anywhere near 1/4 million in home equity.................but the bottom line is I want things to get better as much as anyone, i'm losing money and getting hurt too and dont want things to implode..................but that doesnt mean supporting a bailout that WONT work and will harm the working class.
ReplyDeleteThis whole fiascoe is because they dont know what to value these assets at..............now if the forclosures and job losses increase the SAME problems will creep into the prime mortgages and credit cards and they will be revalued and will require trillions of dollars of capital as well if you dont help homeowners and prop up housing values by trying to limit forclosures.
ReplyDeleteSorry BART but the freeze is the banks NOT wanting to be the last holding the bag of toxic debt, NOTHING congress does can affect that,
ReplyDeleteBanks AROUND the planet refuse to lend ... or are you claiming that the US congress affects how Chinese banks and German banks and British banks, Spanish banks, do business INSIDE their countries?
Three British banks have failed is that also congress's fault?
Spain is convulsing, and the Chinese have actually had a run on one of their banks.
The problem is WORLD wide.
The problems isn't the US congress but the fact the bubble BURST.
ReplyDeleteSince congress didn't create or inflate the bubble they can't be blamed for it or the fact it HAD to burst like ALL economic bubbles do.
ReplyDeleteAnd you're also full of shit on "buying toxic debt".
ReplyDeleteIts not TOXIC!!!
THATS THE HYPE!!!
Its that stupid f$@king hype that caused this mess.
One more time.
ONE PERCENT of mortgages written failed last year.
Up from a HALF PERCENT.
Thats it.
Thats the big "TOXICITY".
These securites are GOOD. The bulk of them are fine. Its a small percentage thats bad and the hype, being propped up by people like you is whats making them "TOXIC".
Mike was warning about this in 2006 and what he said is what happened, so is it also Mikes fault?
ReplyDeleteclif said...
ReplyDeleteThe problems isn't the US congress but the fact the bubble BURST.
Bullshit.
Thats more media spin you're hyping in here.
The "bubble burst".
I'm tired of writing the same thing over and over. Try READING it.
The "bubble" did not burst, we KNEW about an increase in defaults because we were making higher risk loans.
The increased defaults were ANTICIPATED.
Now congress was acting like they weren't, and people like you lapped it up.
Damn you hard headed, the toxic debt collapsed Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merril Lynch, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, AIG in the USA
ReplyDeleteBlack Rock, Bradford and Bingley, in England
and Fortis bank and insurance company in Belgium.
The increased defaults were ANTICIPATED.
ReplyDeleteRight except everyone was saying it wasn't bad LAST fall until it couldn't be contained because of the dropping housing prices and the fact that meant balance sheets in many banks went negative which meant they fail.
The debt IS toxic when it flips the balance sheet into negative numbers, nuclear when it crashes the whole institution.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is some banks can get more capital to flip their balance sheets back, or find another institution to buy them out, those that don't get the US FDIC treatment, which is the nuclear option to a bank.
Oh BTW I forgot Countrywide, Indymac, Americabank, Silver State bank, NetBank, ANB Financial, First National Bank, Integrity Bank, all which had over a billion in assets when they failed, there are more under that threshold.
ReplyDeleteThis is the real problem housing prices are falling which means mortgage principles are higher then the worth of the property they cover, and very few saw that collapse.
ReplyDeleteAnd house prices continue to fall, why?
ReplyDeleteBecause the people who buy houses have seen their standard of living erode. 98% of us are in measurably worse shape than we were before the moronic monkey was appointed to the Presidency. In spite of the "trickle up" bullsh*t espoused by Doltron, Fascist Franny, and comiccowboy, the simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of economic activity in America is generated by the lower 98% of the income-earners. We are the ones who actually BUY stuff, not the ultrarich.
If you want to fix the price of real estate, the only way is to stop the slide in income of the folks who buy the houses. As long as their incomes continue to slide, you can bet your last worthless dollar that the price of real estate will not recover. Chimpy's wealth transfers to the rich from the rest of us is the core of every economic problem we face.
clif said...
ReplyDeleteDamn you hard headed, the toxic debt collapsed Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merril Lynch, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, AIG in the USA
No you're hard headed Clif.
The "toxic" debt didn't collapse these banks. Try reading beyond MSM stories and listen to some actual financial experts instead of the talking heads you see on TV.
It was the TALK of "toxic debt" that collapsed these institutions.
Because foriegn investors pulled their monies out of securities backed by US mortgages because of panic created by overblown hype by pop up "analyst" firms like RealtyTrac, who inflated figures and reported them out of proportion.
The mortgages were not that bad, but Countrywide banked everything on ARM and SubPrime loans, which DID cause THEIR collapse, and thats what started the hype.
Most banking securities are widely diverse, and include only a small portion of subprime loans in their overall packages, and thus are secure. But hype, fueled by inflated and misrepresented data frightened foriegn investors who in turn pulled out of US backed securities, which in turn caused US securities to be devalued, which in turn caused banks divested in those securities to start to fail.
I know nothing I say will sway you. Thats the nature of hype. People wouldn't sell it if they didn't believe it. But its still hype. And all you're doing is adding to the panic.
Jolly Roger said...
ReplyDeleteAnd house prices continue to fall, why?
Because the people who buy houses have seen their standard of living erode.
House prices are falling for one reason and one reason only.
Because a glut of houses have flooded the market because no one can get a loan to buy them.
Mortgage lending is frozen, and home sales have ground to a halt.
So naturally investors, which represent a key demograph in the current crisis, are forced to lower the prices to try and get out from under loans before they go into default, which in turn causes prices to fall across the board.
In turn more of these investors and homeowners who have to sell for whatever reason are going into default because they cannot sell, and the crisis just "fuels itself".
The engine starts with hype, and is fueled by its own effects.
Clif, you remind me of one of those old bearded homeless men standing on a street corner with a sign that says "The END IS NEAR".
ReplyDeleteA lot of doom and gloom hype all the time without ever looking at what your negativity does to help fuel a situation.
When people calm down, and stop listening to doom and gloom bullshit, and start looking at the numbers they'll see that this is not as bad at the core like people are saying, but if we keep fueling it, it could become that way.
If we had not started all the hype last October and instead allowed the market to adjust, we'd have seen a gradual decline and then level off period, which is a normal market correction.
A higher return of default from the Sub Prime market was expected.
ReplyDeleteAnticipated even. What did you think lenders made more high risk loans and expected not to have more defaults???
Come ON people. THINK. Stop hyping and THINK!!!
We KNEW the Sub Prime sector was going to bring in a higher rate of defaults.
But the TRUTH is, the BULK of the mortgages in this country are just fine. The Sub Prime and ARM statistics have offset the overall statistics and have been used by scurious analysts to fuel the scare. But when you factor in the overall picture, what you see is a much more stable picture than whats being sold by Congress.
Remember, these congressional leaders are not financial wizards. They are politicians, who only tell you something for a reason.
With an "axe to grind".
Their reason here is obvious. Cause a financial panic right before a presidential election.
Bad economy is the number one "out" factor for an incumbent party, so theres no question here as to why they're doing it.
When you pull off the partisan blinders, and put on your bi-focals clif, you'll see that this was just much ado about a little ado, and the whole thing is a self fueling crisis that is being played by congress like a cheap, plastic banjo.
House prices are falling for one reason and one reason only.
ReplyDeleteBecause a glut of houses have flooded the market because no one can get a loan to buy them.
Mortgage lending is frozen, and home sales have ground to a halt.
And I say that this is a symptom, rather than a cause. I stand by my analysis of cause.
"A lot of doom and gloom hype all the time without ever looking at what your negativity does to help fuel a situation."
ReplyDeleteWhoa, and you said that with a straight face? I've been telling you that for YEARS now.
Oh, and by the way?
Your last post just agreed with Rush Limbaugh...
It should not go un-noted that the adjustments on these ARM loans was generally way beyond what any reasonable person would have been anticipating. I remember the last time people bought their houses largely on ARM loans (yes, it's happened before.) In those days, lenders actually adjusted based on the prevailing prime rate, rather than on some completely unjustifiable greed-based formula.
ReplyDeleteif ARM rates had adjusted in 2007 the way they adjusted back in 1980, a whole lot of defaulters would undoubtedly have held on.
Whoa, and you said that with a straight face? I've been telling you that for YEARS now.
ReplyDeleteAnd we've been telling you grinning inbred idiots what HAD to happen as a result of your moronic monkey Messiah's fiscal and economic policies.
As I look around, it looks like the doom and gloom crowd had this one right all along.
Its called a self fulfilling prophecy Jolly Roger.
ReplyDeleteWhen WWIII starts are you going to say the Evangelical Christians had Armegeddon right all along too?
Self fulfilling prophecies do not constitute themselves "being right".
They are "made right", but those who buy into them.
Voltron said...
ReplyDeleteYour last post just agreed with Rush Limbaugh...
No, I know what I'm talking about. Limbaugh is just bloviating because he heard someone smart say something.
But the truth is its the hype thats fueling this crisis.
Its the hype that helped create it.
And what we need to FIRST do, is back the securities.
Thats not the only thing we need to do, but its the FIRST thing we need to do.
So your saying the basics of the economy are sound?
ReplyDeleteclif said...
ReplyDeleteSorry BART but the freeze is the banks NOT wanting to be the last holding the bag of toxic debt, NOTHING congress does can affect that
Sorry Clif but you talk circles around yourself and end up defeating your own argument.
By you own admission, if the banks thought the debt was federally insured by the bailout, then the reason you barrier would be removed and they could borrow again.
See how easy that is?
Voltron said...
ReplyDeleteSo your saying the basics of the economy are sound?
No. Theres all sorts of problems with our economy. An economy that needs to be propped up on a housing market is anything but sound.
But I'm saying that the BULK of the mortgages in this country are sound.
And thats the figure that for some reason the MSM isn't tauting.
Well that's good. If you agreed with Rush AND McCain in the same thread I was going to refer you to a psychologist...
ReplyDeleteCongress is playing politics and playing to their constiuents here like they always do.
ReplyDeleteThe mortgages are stable. We need to find out where some of the money's going on the Sub Primes and looking at Countrywide isn't a bad idea but right now we need to back our own securities to get foreign investorship divested again in US backed securities so we can get the banks stable and the economy going.
And we need to free up the mortgage industry to lend. Talking about Regulation during a time of financial crisis is downright IRRESPONSIBLE. Not that regulation is bad, but that scaring lenders during a economic downturn is the way to stall an economy, which they did.
I'm not playing partisan here. Everyone in this room has a partisan axe to grind.
ReplyDeleteEVERYONE.
And everyones arguments are visibly swayed by their partisan politics, even if they refuse to see it.
I could care less about politics at the moment. I care about the country surviving long enough for our kids to grow up. I care about a bunch of grown Americans acting like idiots. I care about people letting their partisan bickering drive the country into bankruptcy.
BOTH sides are guilty here. Both sides. And we need to forget the parstisan bullshit for a minute and think about the fact, that if we sit back with our bottom lips stuck out like Daryll Issa, and refuse to back a bailout bill, then our securities are going to fail, and our banking system could very well collapse.
Now I'm sure theres a few in here who'd be ok with that, because then they could say "see, told ya".
But I could GIVE A RATS ASS about partisan bullshit anymore.
Lets get a bill out there and back these securites NOW, while there are still some left to back.
As an argument for your position,
ReplyDeleteI note the stock market rebounded over 300 points today. Dollars up against the Euro, and crude oil prices are dropping fast.
If the situation was as dire as predicted, I can't see that happening.
Not predicated on the anticipation of a bailout only.
It'll be interesting to see if the market continues to rebound without a plan in place.
Not predicated on the anticipation of a bailout only.
ReplyDeleteYou slipped that one in.
It was predicated on inside buzz that the bailout was going to be rewritten and resubmitted.
But the stock market is just a peice of the puzzle. And until foriegn investors feel good about US securities we will see more banks fail. We have to keep the banks from failing.
JR, your posts are spot on tonight.......... we NEED to enact policies that create good paying middle class jobs and that actually help homeowners keep their homes if we want to actually end this financial meltdown
ReplyDeleteAnyone notice Jon Stewart tonight? He just finished telling congress to get their act together and pass the damn bill. He even called on Bush to whip them into approving it.
ReplyDeleteSeems like Jon Stewart, got a call from his financial consultant in the last 48 hours pointing out what I've been trying to tell people in here. This isn't a partisan issue, but everyones treating it like one.
Even Jon Stewart agrees with me that we need something now.
This is a hail mary that we're arguing about throwing while the clocks running out.
The middle class jobs that were lost that make up the figures you're tauting are mostly due to losses created by the housing market. Millions of Americans from Realtors, to Brick Layers, to electricians, to cashiers at Home Depot have lost their jobs. Ask Lydia. They have a parking lot set up in LA for homeless mothers who lost their jobs in the mortgage lending freeze. They sleep there in their mini vans.
ReplyDeleteYou can get mad at me or not believe me but the fact is I'm giving it to you straight. We need to back our own securities now, before its too late.
Sorry this is Bush's plan and not the DNC's and sorry its not a perfect vote but what'd you expect from Bush? Just get it done and we'll sort it out in Janurary. Otherwise its gonna be a long, cold winter.
Uhh Dennis Kucinich is frickin against bailin out Wallstreet, he says that we need to like help regular people, he says we need to frickin do this from the bottom up and Kucinich is da man, we need more politicians like frickin Kucinich.
ReplyDeleteAnyone like see mcLOSER sayin not to point fingers an blame people for the frickin bailout failing then he like blamed Obama for this frickin abortion of a bailout not passing, frickin country first my ass dude.
ReplyDeleteKucinich said that we need to get regular people health insurance an like help em keep their frickin homes.
ReplyDeleteYea, uhh... well like uhhh fricking kucinich isn't like uhhh, running for president and like uhhhh, health insurance isn't much good if there isn't any bank to pay the bills you submit to it like .. uhhhh
ReplyDeleteBy you own admission, if the banks thought the debt was federally insured by the bailout, then the reason you barrier would be removed and they could borrow again.
ReplyDeleteSorry but since the debt they need to bail out is MUCH larger then what the banks hold in sub prime and ARM mortgages, the people who read the numbers and NOT write on a blog will know ALL of it can't be "insured" by 700 billion dollars especially if the insurance is based on mark to market pricing of the debt which means some banks then hold TOXIC debt by YOUR own idea.
So the banks STILL won't feel real good loaning to each other based on the bail out of a percentage of the bad debt.
But if Paulson had gotten his way, he could have saved the ones he wanted and let the government FDIC sell the others off to people who seem to agree with Paulson's plan.
That is the problem with any bailout or insurance program,
How do you establish the price for the dent?
mark to market and you kill more banks
mark to fairy taleland, you screw the tax payers big time which is what the republicans who thought this up want again, like they screwed then in the tax cut for the rich social security tax hike and raid from Reagan's days.
In case your wondering, here is the math model they use to figure out how the price a Credit Default Swap;
ReplyDeletePV=(1-p_1)N(1-)delta_1+p_1(1-p_2)[N(1-R)delta_2-{Nc/4}delta_1]+p_1p_2(1-p_3)[ N(1-R)delta_3-{Nc/4}delta_1+delta_2)]+p_1 p_2p_3(1-p_4)[N(1-R)delta_4 - {Nc/4}(delta_1+delta_2+delta_3)]-p_1p2p_3p_4 (delta_1+delta_2+delta_3 +delta_4 ){Nc/4}
What the problem is,
the variable (p) is probability,
which means it can fluctuate,
ie;
p =exp(−s(t)Δt)
If you set it low then the price is stable. But like we have seen already if it rises, especially farther then anyone thought, it takes over the equation. Then the debt owed rises sometimes further then the underlying ability of the issuing bank to pay, which is what has happened to those institutions which have failed.
However if you have use mark to market in pricing on balance sheets, then you must to set (p) at it's current rate, HIGH;
This in turn collapses balance sheets, and sends banks hat in hand to the FDIC or Hank Paulson begging.
These credit default swaps now dominate the banks balance sheets because the probability of default has risen.
as Warren buffet said;
"Unless derivatives contracts are collateralized or guaranteed, their ultimate value also depends on the creditworthiness of the counterparties to them. In the meantime, though, before a contract is settled, the counterparties record profits and losses--often huge in amount--in their current earnings statements without so much as a penny changing hands. The range of derivatives contracts is limited only by the imagination of man (or sometimes, so it seems, madmen)."
However even Berkshire Hathaway doesn't have enough money if their contracts for default swaps are called because the probability of default rises.
Here is a good example of how it works when they fail;
The market for credit derivatives is now so large, in many instances the amount of credit derivatives outstanding for an individual name is vastly greater than the bonds outstanding. For instance, company X may have $1 billion of outstanding debt and there may be $10 billion of CDS contracts outstanding. If such a company were to default, and recovery is 40 cents on the dollar, then the loss to investors holding the bonds would be $600 million. However the loss to credit default swap sellers would be $6 billion.
The sub-prime mess ripped the band-aid off the scab of CDS, but the wound is getting larger by the hour, so the band-aid won't work again, hence the attempt at a bailout to get a few more months and Bush out of office so Obama and the congressional democrats can be stuck with the problem which is far from even being attempted to be unwound.
Asking for a return to mark to fairyland, and sweeping the problem under the rug is asking to GROW the PROBLEM some more, not solving the problem by unwinding the toxicity of the entire mess, before it goes nuclear on the entire economy .....
CDS and other derivatives contracts now are larger then the entire real wealth of the planet.
IE; 370 trillion in contracts compared to 170 trillion in real wealth.
Western banks and investment houses including insurance industries hold most of it.
It has to come due, and resolved in some matter, as all financial transactions are resolved.
If enough money is printed to pay it off with the US Government buying it at mark to fairyland prices we have Wiemar America,
If mark to market is used many more banks fail, and 401k's pensions, state and local investments fail;
The bailout seemed toward pushing for mark to fairy tale land .... but in a slow motion way so certain large moneyed interests could get their money out and into better places before hyperinflation took over.
As Monday showed no bailout and we get a crash.
So choose your poison Zimbabwe or the Great Depression on steroids.
mark to fairy tale land leads to a Zimbabwe future for the US, where the value of the dollar is flushed, and even if you get your dollars out of your investments they ain't worth what the dollars your put in were.
mark to market leads toward a second great depression, where the dollar holds up better but many, many people are wiped out .......
Quinnipiac University – “Obama Over 50 Percent In Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania,
ReplyDeleteFLORIDA: Obama 51 – McCain 43 post-debate
OHIO: Obama 50 – McCain 42 post-debate
PENNSYLVANIA: Obama 54 – McCain 39 post-debate
nuff said .........
Will another depression follow if this bill fails (again?)
ReplyDeleteor will we just lose a lotta bankers , stockbreakers etc ?
Everytime clif you parrot the MSM with innacurate little catchphrases like "the sub-prime mess", you're just adding to the problem.
ReplyDeleteIt was a mess. There were some defaults, but not as many as you'd like people to believe to sell your doom and gloom crapola.
You're wrong. It wasn't as bad as you'd like, and while I realize you maybe have nothing to lose here there are real peole losing real money, and what we need to do is back our securities and open up lending, not scream about people who can't pay their mortgage, which they can.
MOST Americans are paying their mortgages and your sub prime mess is a fabrication invented by the democrats in congress and sold by the MSM
Reconstitution's ascap_scab has done an excellent job of tallying up what we're ALREADY responsible for paying off.
ReplyDeleteSomething absolutely, positively will give here. Defense, discretionary expenditures, or tax rates. We can't possibly pay this of with the revenue model this Government is using, and everybody knows it.
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