11/11 HAPPY ANNIVERSARY SWEETHEART!
We'll always have St. Barth's!
2008 St. Barth
Here is Lydia in front of the Gene Simmon's Axe Bass Guitar Bus!**********************
My friend (not pictured here) whom Cristina and I rescued from a extremely violent domestic abuse situation, is staying with me and just beginning to heal and have hope. In years, no one has had the time to listen to her story or help her. No one has believed her -- that a person so sweet could have everything taken from her for no reason at all. She is prone to giggle at the slightest courtesy. She has been through so much pain and violence, that when someone opens a door for her at the grocery store — stops to actually help her cross the street, figure out a parking ticket or actually talk to her and listen — she is overjoyed. Talk about appreciating life. When everything is taken from you, you can really be grateful for the little things.
ONE DAY AT A TIME IN ALANON... Some thoughts from my friend Mary in Shanghai:
After being sober for a while I see that no situation lasts forever. I used to have this horrible sense of urgency around my problems that I had to impulsively just do "something" to fix it all immediately or I would be so uncomfortable in my own skin, anxious and worried and burdened. So coming from this anxiety I often acted wrongly or suffered needlessly. I thought if I didn't do something about it right now it would be here for all time. Now I know that everything passes eventually.
Today, I can ask myself "What can I do about this right here, right now?" This question helps me to identify my responsibilities today surrounding this more realistically and shows me what part of the situation is beyond my control today. What I cannot do today I turn over. I remember I am in the footwork business, God is in the results business.
Reasoning things out with my sponsor or someone from the fellowship can help me to seperate todays problems with those of the past and the future. I will trust my Higher Power with tomorrow.
Then I do what I can and "turn over" the rest. In the 12-step program we turn our burdens, worries and fears over to our higher power.
"Today is only a small manageable segment of time in which my difficulties need not overwhelm me. This lifts from our hearts and minds the heavy weight of both past and future".
THE VOICE IN THE TREES... an essay on being a homeless woman. Back by popular demand... coming soon.
Rather than wanting to hold to the past longer, and slow things down, and stop the aging process -- just revel in the power of now! You can't stop time, and you won't stop the recycling process that is taking place upon this planet, nor would you want to -- but you do not have to suffer the moving through time. Every moment can be more wonderful than the moment before. - Abraham
Arianna Huffington: Why It's Wrong When Wrongdoers Are Allowed to Admit No Wrongdoing
Last week, JP Morgan agreed to a $722 million settlement with the SEC stemming from a risky derivatives deal that drove Alabama's most populous county to the brink of bankruptcy. As part of the settlement, JPMorgan neither admitted nor denied wrongdoing -- despite ample evidence that it had engaged in plenty of wrongdoing. This is what passes for justice on Wall Street: regulators give a company a ding to its bottom line, and are ready to quickly forget the whole thing and allow the company to move on to the next lucrative money-printing scheme. When corporate perpetrators don't have to admit they did anything wrong, it's as if the crime never happened. Which, of course, makes it much more likely that it will happen again.
Top photo: Suzan, bottom photo: Lydia
BARBADOS: Lydia, Cheryl Hines, Sharon Case
Another note on our friend "Voltron" aka cosmic cowboy\crusty, etc.
ReplyDeleteFor years he sold himself as a passive, uninvolved "moderate" who spent his time driving trucks and working with fuel figures, even though he sure had a lot of time to not only blog incessantly in here, but start his own blog to mock and ridicule blog members in here.
But check out his "ruffian blog" now, and you'll see a much different picture of our friend voltron, and its a stark contrast to the "casual blogger" he portrayed in here (in an attempt to refute accusations of his being a far right wing troll, either paid or volunteer).
Now you'll see that he is not only heavily involved in the far right neoconservative movement, but he's actually a "Teabagger".
Yup. That's right.
Our little "casual blogger" friend is no casual blogger at all, but instead is highly divested in the far right wingnut movement that infested our capitol and shouted down discourse, and who is actively working to rob the poor of health care and keep the greedy insurance giants fat and happy.
He was one of the teabag protesters and he is actively pushing that far right wing neoconservative bullshit, in an attempt to derail efforts for insurance reform and attack the President at every turn.
So, when he comes crawling back in, either using his own handle or one of his many altar egos, just remember.
This is no causual blogger. No "reasonable moderate".
Instead he's numbered among the worst of the worst of the neoconservative lunatic wingnuts.
A Teabagger.
As his own blog now readily admits.
Last year, 2200 Vets died from lack of health insurance.
ReplyDelete500 were killed in combat, but 2200 died from lack of health insurance.
But the "TEABAGGERS", those flag waving "patriots" are working like the devil (and with) to ensure more vets die from lack of health care, along with tens of thousands of Americans.
"They've got theirs" and screw everyone else.
We have the best technology in the world. We’re supposed to be the ‘can-do’ nation.
ReplyDeleteAnd our health care system really fails so many people. Especially poor people, people who don’t have the means to go to private doctors. I think we should change that. I think it’s absolutely crucial.
Certainly it’s a just and noble cause to make health care available to everyone.
Basket Ball Hall of Fame Legend, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Now it is failing the middle class. The poor can get help, as my now destitute friend is finding out. But it's the middle class who are suffering.
ReplyDeleteUnless you own AIG insurance company, a bank or a pharmaceutical firm, why would you Voltron - or anyone - want to keep these fat cat CEOs in 30 million dollar salaries and golden parachutes?
That's all we are asking! Why do you want to keep insurance companies ripping us off?
I can't figure out why we can't be like every other nation on earth that would never think of making a profit off of cancer.
My other friend, a single mother, lost her home to pay her cancer treatments.
This is a NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE.
WHY IS WAR FUNDED AUTOMATICALLY TO THE TUNE OF TRILLIONS -- and a war for oil it turns out -- yet you won't get behind HEALTH care?
You like to kill and destroy, but God forbid you HELP SUSTAIN LIFE!
These people aren't coherent Lydia. Might as well try to reason with a stone.
ReplyDeleteThese people are bringing guns to rallies. Talking about assasination and revolution. These people are spreading racist hatred across the land, and their fruits we see on tv every day now in killings and shootings and the like.
Jesus warned us when we live by the sword we perish by the sword but these "Christians" have little time for the words of Christ.
Today we saw another shooting, this time in Oregon. Two people dead, Eight others shot and wounded, before the gunman finally turned the gun on himself. The other day it was the office worker in Florida, and before that the shooting at Fort Hood.
There's a reason people are taking out guns and killing people, and its because we are spreading that as a solution to everything, or more correctly stated, they are. The neoconservative killers.
Those who like damage.
Today, another neoconservative wingnut, a Marine reservist in Florida beat a visiting Greek Orthodox PRIEST, because he "thought he was an Arab terrorist".
That's right.
Marine reservist Jasen D Bruce beat a Greek Orthodox Priest, with a tire iron, because he was too stupid to know the difference between Greek and Arabic, and too stupid to know that not all Arabs are terrorists.
Obviously a Fox News fan.
Fortunately he was charged with aggravated assault, and the DA is looking into charging this moron with a hate crime.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 7:6
Last night on his show Bill Oreilly said that we must try to win as many of the hearts and minds of the "good moderate Muslims", beacause .......wait for it....wait for it...... because "WE CAN'T KILL EM ALL".
ReplyDeleteFor Hitler and the Nazi's it was the Jews.
And for these neoconservatives, its the Muslims.
Its a good thing at least half this country is sane enough and strong enough to control these bastards.
Because otherwise we'd be looking at another Holocaust.
POOR UNINFORMED ERIC/VOLTRON AND FREEDOM FAN:
ReplyDeletePROFITS OF MONOPOLISTIC INSURANCE GIANTS ARE CRIMINAL
Specifically, the administrative expenses of a public plan like Medicare are far lower than the expenses for Blue Cross of North Carolina. According to its Annual Report, Blue Cross of North Carolina spent almost 15 percent of its premiums on administrative expenses in 2008. That came to more than $1.8 billion. This money would have been enough to cover the costs of insuring almost 600,000 kids through the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). Just five years earlier, Blue Cross of North Carolina spent more than 22 percent of premiums on administrative expenses.
By comparison, Medicare spends only about 2 percent of its revenue on administrative expenses. Unlike Blue Cross of North Carolina, Medicare doesn't earn profits and doesn't pay high salaries to its top executives. According to the Raleigh News and Observer, Robert J. Greczyn Jr., the chief executive of Blue Cross of North Carolina, earned $3.2 million in 2007. That's enough to pay for a year's worth of SCHIP for 1,000 kids. Other top executives also drew salaries well in excess of $1 million, a pay range that exceeds the top levels in the public sector by an order of magnitude.
Given the high salaries that Blue Cross of North Carolina pays its top executives and the other administrative expenses that it bears as a result of being a private sector plan with high overhead, it is not surprising that it would be afraid of a public plan. A public plan would likely charge much lower prices, thereby pulling away a large share of Blue Cross of North Carolina's business. Insofar as it was able to hold on to its patients, Blue Cross of North Carolina would probably be forced to lower its prices - slashing its profit margins - in order to be able to compete. This is not a happy picture for any business: fewer customers and lower profit margins.
Poor uninformed COSMIC COWBOY who gets his "information" from Faux news, Beck and Limbaugh and Hannity, consummate liars.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you do your own research and then go within, where all true answers lie?
You are listening to absolute astonishing blatant lies.
Wanna know another difference between bush and Obama,
ReplyDeleteThe Bush white house never sent me one of these;
Clif –
Today, on Veterans Day, my message to you is simple: Thank you. Thank you for your selfless service, for your valor, and for your strength of purpose that make all of us proud to be Americans.
Today, Americans will pause amidst a great conversation about the future of our nation to take a moment and recognize your service to our democracy — a service that guarantees us all the liberty to engage freely in that conversation, no matter what our views may be.
We know that we owe you a debt that cannot be repaid. But we can and will fulfill our nation’s promise to stand by you and your loved ones. That is why we’ve worked hard for better care for our veterans, and why we provided the largest increase in Veterans Administration funding in history.
Today, we honor those Americans past and present who’ve served on battlefields from Lexington to Antietam, Normandy to Manila, Inchon to Khe Sanh, Ramadi to Kandahar. You have defended our freedom on land, and at sea, and in the air.
You reflect the diversity that makes this America. You share a patriotism beyond question. And you share the same unflinching courage, selfless compassion, and uncommon camaraderie that — when faced with the tragedy of a despicable and heartbreaking attack last Thursday — the soldiers and civilians of Ft. Hood humbly revealed to the world.
You and your loved ones are the patriotic men and women we honor today, Veterans Day. And you are the men and women we shall honor every day, in times of war and times of peace, so long as our nation endures.
Thank you.
President Barack Obama
…… but Obama’s administration did on the very first veterans day he was Commander in Chief.
How do republicans "honor" veterans?
ReplyDeleteLike this
They deny benefits to veterans who signed up and served in combat.
They refuse to fund the A ay levels the two wars started by Bush need.
They allow more vets to die from lack of health care then in combat this year.
Heck of a job GOPers .....
OBAMA rejecting all Afghan options,
ReplyDeleteGOOD for him
I usually only post my own little limericks and poems, but I found this one in TP this evening and really liked it so I thought I'd post it here.
ReplyDeleteIts called "The Conservative Mind" and it was written by a blogger calling himself "New England Indy".
---
"The Conservative Mind"
I came to ponder one day on reflection
The conservative mind and their lack of direction
I wondered how people that should be united
Would need to have guns to intimidate and frighten
It came to me quickly and so very clear
That the conservative mind is too full of fear
They fear terrorist and Marxist and socialist and such
They fear liberals who fought for their right to be nuts
They fear black men and brown men and red men and yellow
They fear gay men and lesbians who’s gentle and mellow
They fear progress that will better the life of us all
They fear truth cause the truth only leads to their fall
They fear teaching the public the power of knowledge
They fear all the people that made it through collage
They fear that a brown girl is now in the SCOTUS
And that SCOTUS could not keep a black man from POTUS
They fear Randi and Keith and Ms. Rachel Maddow
These conservatives are even afraid of their shadow
It must be a bummer to live in such fear
To be such a coward that the truth cant show clear
They promote war and death when they claim their pro life
Yet they won’t volunteer to fight in such strife
Their wrapped in a flag with a bible for show
But will never adhere to the words that bestow
They will claim that they worship the word of the Lord
While defending the need to apply waterboard
How could we wander within eight short years
From a beacon of freedom to a cauldron of tears
Conservatives need to go back to their mantra
Before Rush and Beck and Fox propaganda
It isn’t to late for the right to repent
For the lies that they spew and their hateful intent
Conservatives seem to care more for their pets
Than the strife of our homeless or the health of our vets
They protest government intrusion in life
Unless your a lesbian in love with your wife
Or a gay man who just wants to be with his lover
Or a woman too weak to give birth to another
Compassion is void in the conservative mind
Where women don't speak, they just stand behind
Their husbands that stray from their marriage vow
While claiming that they are holier than thou
So What can be said to the conservative mind
Where logic and reason has been left behind
There’s one biblical saying that will always hold true
Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.
INSURANCE FRAUD AND CORRUPTION: YES, IT MATTERS when corporations form monopolies.
ReplyDeleteThe California Medical Association will ask the Department of Managed Health Care to take action against Blue Cross of California for jeopardizing the physician-patient relationship and reducing patient access to care by engaging in unlawful business practices that make Blue Cross a leader in profits at the expense of patient care.
The CMA will testify today at a public hearing in Los Angeles that Blue Cross has violated the promises it made to California patients when it merged with Anthem Health Care in 2004. Since that merger, Blue Cross - long the poster child for insurance company bad behavior - has consistently reduced the amount of money it spends on patient care while increasing premiums, and is now in danger of failing to provide an adequate supply of available physicians for its networks.
"With the consolidation of the health plan industry, both nationally and in this state, competition among the insurance companies has been severely diminished, if not eliminated, much to the detriment of the very individuals these plans promise to serve - patients and their treating physicians," CMA says in written testimony submitted for today's hearing.
"The turmoil created by Blue Cross has taken its toll on everyone… It must be remembered that it is physicians who provide medical care to patients, not health plans." CMA Counsel Astrid Meghrigian will testify at the hearing, 320 W. 4th Street, Junipero Serra Building, Carmel Room Auditorium. The hearing begins at 10 a.m. Doctors and other providers, as well as consumers, are scheduled to speak. CMA testimony is available here.
The DMHC called the hearing to review commitments made by Blue Cross when it merged with Anthem three years ago. The DMHC has initiated 18 enforcement actions -- which included multiple fines -- against Blue Cross so far in 2007, a significant increase from previous years.
CMA contends that among a vast collection of misdeeds, Blue Cross has:
-- Reimbursed physicians at unconscionably low levels - at times below the actual cost of care;
-- Increased premiums charged to consumers - amounting to a nearly 10 % average increase between 2004 and 2005 alone, which is a greater increase than any other major health insurer;
-- Refused to pay for patient care after pre-authorizing the care;
-- Reduced reimbursement levels without appropriate notice, and in some cases no notice, in violation of state law; and
-- Rescinded patients' health plans retroactively.
CMA testified similarly in a DMHC hearing in 2004, when the statewide physician organization said "undertakings" drafted at that time, outlining commitments Blue Cross must make to Californians, were insufficient. CMA says Blue Cross has failed to comply with many of the undertakings, including commitments to not increase premiums; to provide adequate networks of physicians; and maintain organizational administrative capacity, among others.
For at least a decade, Blue Cross has consistently spent less on medical care for Californians than the law requires while increasing premiums charged to consumers and increasing profits. Current law mandates that health insurance plans spend 85% of their health care dollars on taking care of patients. Blue Cross consistently has spent less than 80% on health care.
While Blue Cross seems averse to paying physicians fairly and spending adequately on health care, it is the lone insurer who is spending $2 million this year in efforts to defeat California health reform proposals designed to increase access to care.
4:57 PM
Happy Veterans Day Clif.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your service in Desert Storm. You guys did a great job of driving Saddam back into his hole and liberating the people of Kuwait.
You made us all look good.
Thanks Worf;
ReplyDeleteThe email isn't all President Obama did on veterans day.
Lydia, according to U.S. News and World Feport, the profit margin for the health insurance industry as a whole was 3.4%. Compare this to the oil and gas industry which made 10.2% or, better yet, the beverage industry at 24%....Then, of course, there's Google at 20.6% and Microsoft at 24.9%. As for individual health insurance companies, you have United Health Group at 4.1% and Wellpoint at 4%. These are the facts. Now, sure, one could argue that ANY profit when it comes to heathcare is too costly. But for people to single out THIS one industry as voraciously greedy is kind of ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteClif, thank you for your service. God Bless you.
ReplyDeleteLove,
Lydia
Will, you have not taken into account the real facts. This is nothing to do with what we're talking about.
ReplyDeleteThis is from U.S. News and World Report. As far as I know, they're not a part of the right-wing conspiracy.
ReplyDeleteWill you quote is correct in the fact they are reporting net profits,
ReplyDeletenot gross profits,
which include the various costs the corps decide to spend like over paid executives and compensation and of course their lobbyists spent money at the rate of $1.4 million a day which they deduct from profits even though that cost is protecting their greed not their insured.
Of course the return on investment is much higher;
12.80%, but most corps probably include losses on the investments they held, as losses in their business model so this year will show up as depressed, however the truth:
Over the past 10 years their profits have been increased by over 450 percent. In 2009 everyone is down in the profit realm so it is a good time to quote said profits as very low.
"Never get into a debate with someone whose livelihood depends on not being persuaded." H.L. Menchen
ReplyDeleteClif, out of respect for Ms. Cornell (I'm assuming it's out of respect for her), you're being civil. I approve. Yes, 1.4 million dollars a day for lobbying is a lot. I don't mean to dismiss it. But it sounds like that's over the entire health care industry; health issurance companies, drug companies, the AMA and other pressure groups, etc.. Individual entities are spending probably 2-5 million a year. Still a lot, still disgusting, but it doesn't account much for the rise in healthcare costs. As for the 20 million a year that these bozos at the top now make, again, it's disgusting. It's certainly not good for public relations. But even if these clowns worked for nothing, healthcare would still be exhorbitant. This, in that we'd still have the same fragmented, under-regulated system.
ReplyDeleteAs for Medicare, Lydia, it's certainly not the panacea that those on the left have been articulating lately. Yes, the administrative costs are low (3%). But the fraud and mismanagement are legendary. The last time they (the government) did a study on Medicare fraud, they found it to represent 10% of the overall budget. That isn't very good. And now, with the government cutting another 500 billion out of reimbursements to doctors and hospitals, etc., this will strap the system even more. Doctors will be forced either to 1) take a hit, 2) pass the costs on to those NOT on Medicare, or 3) just stop taking Medicare patients all-together (like they're already doing now with Medicaid patients). My solution (as I think I've stated before) would be to 1) get rid of the barriers to interstate insurance purchasing, 2) provide vouchers for people to purchase this insurance, and 3) create a Federal oversight board (kind of like the Fed in banking - my good buddy, Volt, probably won't like this part of the plan) to set minimum coverage standards (no more preexisting condition bullshit, etc.) and resolve malpractice disputes. Is it a perfect plan? No. But it 1) keeps the Feds out of another Post Office scenario and 2) keeps the insurance companies a lot more honest. Oh, and, yes, it helps in the area of increasing competition, too.
ReplyDeleteWhat bought and sold neoconservative shills for the insurance companies like Will here always omit, is the absolute moral turpitude required by a people who believe that human life, death and suffering ought to be a money making venture.
ReplyDeleteNo decent society would ever seek to make this a capitalist venture, i.e. the deaths and wellness of our citizens.
But because the insurance lobby's have so many republicans in their pockets, and because they have so many emptied headed drones in theirs, like the ones we see in here, our society does seek to gain monetary wealth off the pain, suffering and death of our people.
It started with the criminal that was Richard Nixon, and has blossomed into the nightmare that it is today. I have relatives, very close ones, who have died thanks to this sort of charlatan venture, and no doubt many in here have too.
No decent, good society seeks monetary gain off the sick and dying, but this country does, thanks to a vocal portion of our population who align themselves with greedy, corrupt men and call it good.
Until natural selection weeds this sort of vermin from our ranks, we'll all suffer in the hell they've created for us all.
The preamble to constitution of the United States details the purpose of "promoting the general welfare".
ReplyDeleteAnd the core of the general welfare is access to medical care for the sick, and injured of our population.
Apologist shills like Will here (concern trolls) will argue over how much profit the insurance carriers make off of the sick and dying.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why you'll never get anywhere debating the likes of these.
Because they have no moral character with which to appeal to.
They'll never "get" the fallacy of their arguments, because they have no moral compass to guide them.
To them, its perfectly acceptable for a group of people to garner wealth off of the sick and dying, and that is the stumbling block you'll never get past.
Without a moral center founded in human values, people like these will never "get it".
All we can do at that point is work to defeat them.
"Bought and sold neoconservative trolls". Yet another unprovked attack from the same guy who accused me of being a sock puupet of Volt. Nice,. huh? Some things just never change. Oh, and just for the record, Lydia. I think that the Republican "bill" is a piece of garbage, too. It doesn't even prohibit denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions. As bad as the Democratic bill is, at least it does that much.
ReplyDeleteNeoconservative are in favor of an aggressive foreign policy; preemptive wars, nation building, torture, a Wilsonian attempt to spread our form of democracy. I, PERSONALLY, have consistently spoken out against all of those things. I'm about as much of a neocon as Chris Matthews/George Will. I ain't one, in other words.
ReplyDeleteFunny.
ReplyDeleteWhenever we see you "speaking out" its always in favor of the neoconservative position.
I shall look for this new and improved will hart.
Now, back to reality.
ReplyDeleteWhat wills poo pooing of Medicare (using pre written cue cards straight from the RNC propaganda machine) leaves out, is that for the expansion of medicare to everyone simply requires funding.
The vehicles already in place. Billing, management, everything. Its all there. All it requires to work is funding.
And all we're talking about is expanding medicare funding to cover everyone and to cover all medical costs incurred by a patient. Much like the European systems.
Funding is all it takes. And that's what all of the arguments against it omit.
Every other plan is based on the notion of funding the insurance companies, who already have been identified as the problem.
We already know of the corrupt practices they employ with regards to the chronically sick and or dying. Hell they've been making movies about it for decades. Its common knowledge.
They're part of the problem, so any idea that is based on making them part of the solution is most likely doomed to failure.
Medicare on the other hand is simply underfunded. Its because we have republicans willing to vote to spend trillions of dollars on war, but not on the poor.
Its because we have republicans (and many democrats) who are willing to pay to send our citizens off to war, but not to the hospital.
Until we start electing people who actually care about the people as a whole, we won't get anywhere.
These aren't complicated matters. Congressmen and senators and the shills like will try to pretend they are, but the truth is its just a matter of funding.
All of wills protests against medicare dissolve into thin air once you address the sole issue of funding.
Medicare is not "broken".
Its simply underfunded.
And if we vote to expand it and spend the trillions they're getting ready to throw at the insurance industry (which is broken, and is the problem), then we could extend health care to every American in the US.
And then we'd be catching up with the rest of the countries of the world.
:|
Like Cuba.
The republicans have spent their years wisely, hiring paid political consultants who are little more than "jingle writers".
ReplyDeleteThey find "creative" ways to state something in order to completely obscure the meaning.
In this instance, its the tired yet resilient line, "MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
Of course we all know its "not broken".
Its simply underfunded.
Underfunded due mostly to republicans who vote against funding it.
And there ya go.
Think about it. Its brilliant.
First, you vote against funding something.
Then, starving for funds problems creep up in the program.
Then, you simply turn to the problems and declare "SEE? ITS BROKEN"
:|
Its sheer brilliance, and it works every time. Because the people are collectively stupid. They buy what the lowest common denominator amongst us buys.
They believe what the single celled amoeba standing next to them believes. Mostly because they're too lazy to think.
So, we go with what the lowest common denominator thinks is good.
And that's why we have a nation where almost half of us think its ok to make money off the sick, injured and dying.
Because we're easily flim flammed by the flim flam artists the republicans call "consultants" who simply coin a phrase, and then get us to collectively chant it.
Its a wonder we're all not Hare Krishna's.
ReplyDeleteOh and uh, "will"?
ReplyDeleteThat you are as far right as George Will, was never in doubt.
If we as a country can fund our warriors, then we can fund our healers too.
ReplyDeleteI admire George Will as a pricipled traditional conservative (and one who opposed the Iraq War - as I did - from DAY ONE). I admire Matthews because he's a maverick. I admired Clinton for his tireless attempts to bring peace to the Middle-East. I admired Paul Tsongas and Warren Rudman for starting the Concord Coalition. I admire the two lady Republican senators from Maine....and the two lady blue-dogs from Arkansas and Louisiana respectively. I voted for John Anderson, Ross Perot twice, and Nader in 2000. And I wasn't reading RNC talking points. Not at all. My main inspiration for healthcare reform is Dr. Ezekial Emanuel - hello, an Obama adviser (who, unfortunately, Mr. Obama didn't listen to enough)! And I challenge you to find ANYWHERE one instance in which I argue in favor of preemptive war, torture, nation building, a Wilsonian spreading of democracy, etc. - ONE INSTANCE. Yes, on some of the economic, healthcare, and energy issues, I lean more toward bluedogs, etc. (I'm in favor of drilling in ANWR, for example). But to lump me in any one camp, I reject vociferously.
ReplyDeleteNow how did I know that will, the "concerned moderate" would launch into a tirade over George Will, and continue to try to "position himself" instead of simply positing himself by addressing the facts I just so painstakingly laid out?
ReplyDeleteHow pray tell, did I foresee that?
Rather than addressing my easy dismantling of wills "concerned protests" against expanding medicare, our concerned moderate chose to once more divert from any information that refutes his right wing talking points against medicare, and instead tries to divert into a tirade about his own so called moderate liberalism.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, I have no further time for the likes of this one, so instead I'll stay on track, and repeat my refutation of his lies about medicare.
The truth that Willy Wanna here doesn't want you to focus on, is that all of his protests against medicare dissolve into the ether, as soon as you address the issue of funding.
He doesn't want you focusing on the fact that medicare is in place. The billing, the infrastructure, all there. All that has to happen is for us to fund it, like we fund war.
But with guys like will out there, voicing his "concerns" and trying to sell the neoconservative talking points being sold by everyone from the RNC to Rush Limbaugh, i.e. "Medicare is Broken", that' not likely to happen.
Not now anyway.
Because they are so good at what they do.
I mentioned George Will AND Chris Matthews. And you threw back only Will. YOU are the one who is predictable. Good luck in finding those quotes of me supporting the neocon philoosophy.
ReplyDeleteThey are so good at "wagging the dog". So good at muddying what we all know are simple facts. So good at lying about other countries health care, and ignoring the fact that the EU, where the people enjoy free health care, has a better economy than we do.
ReplyDeleteThey're so good at the smoke and mirrors, and when their arguments get exposed, as Wills did here tonight, they simply divert some more.
As the true consummate concern troll, Will proceeds to ignore the long, detailed posts explaining the fallacy of his arguments, and instead focuses on trying to shift my words from expanding medicare, to being drawn into a tit for tat debate with him on the virtues of George Will.
Fortunately for this once celled mammal called Will, he doesn't have to worry himself about a long drawn out debate over his apparent mentor.
Because I am committed to staying focused on the facts, and the facts are Wills lying.
He's selling right wing talking points that you can hear on Rush Limbaugh, or Doctor Laura Ingraham every day, claiming "MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
When anyone with an IQ over 40 knows, its not.
Its just underfunded.
And THAT'S the truth they don't want you to know.
I was addressing your accusation. As for Medicare (in my previous comment), I was addressing my concerns with it; the fact that it's being cut by the Democrats, my fear that some doctors may start to not accept it, the 10% fraud figure that comes from the government's own study, the fact that it is "simply" (as if money's not an issue LOL) underfunded, the demographic problems down the road etc.. If you do not share these concerns, that is fine. It's a free country. But for you to so consistently tear down my integrity and motivation, you've got some real problems, buddy. Lydia, good luck. Good luck with this fellow. That's all I can say here.
ReplyDelete"one celled mammal", "lying", "anyone with an IQ over 40". Like I said, Lydia, good luck!
ReplyDeleteNotice how the concern troll continues to try to draw me into a discussion of George Will.
ReplyDeleteNotice that although I completely decimated his arguments against medicare, he just ignores that, which is the topic, and tries so hard to drag me into a discussion of George Will.
All I said is I am perfectly happy to accept the fact that he is as right wing as George Will.
That was one tiny sentence out of half a dozen long, lengthy comments completely destroying his nonsense protests against medicare.
But he ignores all of that, ignores the debate, to try to turn it into something about George Will.
And he's still doing it.
Because this liar has nothing to do with promoting health reform.
He is just here to derail and distract.
For his masters, who's boots bows low to lick.
ReplyDeletethe fact that it's being cut by the Democrats,
ReplyDeletethat is a lie will;
The cuts are to the payments to corporations running a privatization of Medicare the republicans wanted to show private contractors could run Medicare better, but never have.
So your statement is a bald faced reich wing lie,
as usual.
Anyone want to take odds on how many posts this thing calling itself Will will make that don't address the actual topic, now that he's been refuted?
ReplyDeletewhy am I not surprised?
ReplyDeleteWall street doesn't want the health care scam changed at all ....... and neither does will.
Seriously, is there anyone left who is not aware that this thing is nothing more than a neoconservative punk, portraying a "moderate" so he can concern troll liberal blogs?
ReplyDeleteAnyone?
:|
Anyone at all?
He could have proved me wrong, and addressed the hard facts I so clearly and painstakingly laid out for him.
But instead, like the consummate concern troll he stayed true to form, and proceeded to try derail the topic into a tit for tat over his allegiances.
So goes the concern troll.
What wills poo pooing of Medicare (using pre written cue cards straight from the RNC propaganda machine) leaves out, is that for the expansion of medicare to everyone simply requires funding.
ReplyDeleteThe vehicles already in place. Billing, management, everything. Its all there. All it requires to work is funding.
And all we're talking about is expanding medicare funding to cover everyone and to cover all medical costs incurred by a patient. Much like the European systems.
Funding is all it takes. And that's what all of the arguments against it omit.
Every other plan is based on the notion of funding the insurance companies, who already have been identified as the problem.
We already know of the corrupt practices they employ with regards to the chronically sick and or dying. Hell they've been making movies about it for decades. Its common knowledge.
They're part of the problem, so any idea that is based on making them part of the solution is most likely doomed to failure.
Medicare on the other hand is simply underfunded. Its because we have republicans willing to vote to spend trillions of dollars on war, but not on the poor.
Its because we have republicans (and many democrats) who are willing to pay to send our citizens off to war, but not to the hospital.
Until we start electing people who actually care about the people as a whole, we won't get anywhere.
These aren't complicated matters. Congressmen and senators and the shills like will try to pretend they are, but the truth is its just a matter of funding.
All of wills protests against medicare dissolve into thin air once you address the sole issue of funding.
Medicare is not "broken".
Its simply underfunded.
And if we vote to expand it and spend the trillions they're getting ready to throw at the insurance industry (which is broken, and is the problem), then we could extend health care to every American in the US.
BTW will, George Will gets many FACTS wrong in both his column and on air claims, he is as factually challenged as you are, which might be why you like him so much,
ReplyDeleteHe twists the truth to fit his partisan position just like you do.
I guess widdle will ran away again.
ReplyDeleteSee that's the great lie.
ReplyDeleteThe great lie is simply a "Jingle".
:D
A creation by paid RNC "Jingle Writers", that they call "strategists".
These consultants produce jingles like "War on Terror" and "Enhanced Interrogation" in order to deceive the simple minded masses.
And their latest "jingle" is "MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
The truth is, Medicare is underfunded.
And what's more, they're the ones underfunding it.
Once you speak the truth to a concern troll like Will, he fades as quickly as his lies.
ReplyDeleteAll those protests and responses, and not one single solitary word about the truth I spelled out concerning his anti-medicare lies.
ReplyDeleteAnd to think.
He actually still seems to think he's fooling someone.
Like I said, although he and his kind clearly are not, his masters are indeed brilliant.
ReplyDeleteThey underfund a program that they want to fail.
Then when it struggles, they say "LOOK ITS BROKEN".
So instead of speaking the truth, and pointing out how we need to fund medicare to expand coverage and benefits to every American, their lackeys come in to sell the "Jingle".
And when the jingle is exposed for what it is, they disappear.
ReplyDeleteAlong with their crumbling arguments.
The fact is we're getting ready to throw a lot of money at the insurance companies who have been proven to be at the root of the problem.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, any solution that includes them, is doomed to failure.
Medicare already works and works pretty well for tens of millions of Americans.
And with proper funding it would work really well.
And it could be expanded to cover all Americans if it were simply funded.
But rather than address that, the right wing sends out trolls to blogs and stooges to FOX news, to defame medicare and distract from the fact that it is their kind refusing to fund it.
Just like they send soldiers to war, and then refuse to fund their health care when they return.
And here's the other truth that the "concern trolls" don't want you to know.
ReplyDeleteInsurance companies won't go out of business if Medicare is expanded to cover all Americans.
Instead they'll simply shift their focus back to offering additional premium coverage and piggyback insurance for those who can afford it.
But there will no longer be jobs for those soulless individuals who earn their living, seeing how many claims they can deny in a month.
Their days will be over, and they'll have to go out and find some honest work.
Crying about his integrity being maligned Will once more runs off never addressing the sole pivotal issue of funding, beyond a single "Lol" as if that somehow addresses it in any way.
ReplyDeleteWill cannot even face the fact that being underfunded is what is causing most medicare woes, from issues with coverage to the 10 percent fraud figure he purports. Never mind insurance is riddled with fraud, and never mind most insured people who get really sick end up in the poor house, broke, bankrupt and destitute.
Never mind all that.
All Will does is instead attack medicare, and try desperately to seed the idea in here that we should continue to fund the big insurance corporations that are killing and bankrupting us all.
So once more Will has come in, started crap with me, then when I present him with a fact, ...the fact that if we simply funded medicare, then medicare would work, and then runs off, crying about his impugned dignity.
Utterly hilarious to say the least.
The fact is that medicare works now for tens of millions of Americans. Its not perfect.
Nothing is.
Yet Will demands it to be, and ignores the fact that if its not funded of course it will struggle.
You need funding for oversight.
Funding for fraud prevention.
Funding for broad coverage.
Funding for optimal preventative care.
Funding for wide acceptance.
You need funding, to make it work.
So funding "lol" is the answer.
The root answer.
All else springs from it.
Will it be perfect?
Is anything perfect?
Big children know they are not, and know it will not.
But big children also know that they have public health care in the EU, Canada, even Cuba, and it works.
But Will cannot face that.
He cannot face that medicare is already in place, and with a little revamping and a lot more funding, we could expand it to cover all Americans, so we could truly say we were an advanced society.
But guys like Will, who claim to be "moderate liberals" for some reason sell the republican doctrine that "government doesn't work".
And so we see a moderate liberal whose core doctrine, is the doctrine of the conservative republican.
Government does work Will, when its done right, and when its funded right. Just ask my dad. He's a Vet of WWII, and the VA took real good care of him.
The new republican slogan, or "Jingle" as I like to call it, is;
ReplyDelete"MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
But the truth is its just broke.
They just hired a "strategist" who took the sentence "Medicare is Broke" and added an "N" to it and walla.
New republican mantra.
And Wills in here selling that doctrine. Along with the doctrine that government doesn't work.
Does that sound like a "Moderate Liberal" to anyone?
Anyone think that sounds like a "moderate liberal"?
Please speak up if you do.
Anyone.
Anyone at all...
...Buhler...
Medicare is not broken.
ReplyDeleteIf it were broken it wouldn't be taking care of tens of millions of Americans every day.
Medicare is sometimes broke, when we don't fund it.
You can't starve a steer and then complain that its too skinny.
But that's their logic.
The republican mantra that its "broken", even though tens of millions of Americans use it every day with little issue.
The truth is the republican would rather fund a war that kills a hundred thousand people, rather than part with a nickel of his precious tax dollar to help some poor bastard somewhere in our own country who needs an operation.
The republican figures if he doesn't make enough money to pay for it himself, then he's chaff and the the country will be better off without him.
That's the republican doctrine.
That's what they preach in here, and everywhere.
Hey, GHOST - please no personal attacks.
ReplyDeleteI am trying to find where you did this, but if not -- this is a warning.
I do not want to become them.
But it is appropriate to call a liar a liar but when you say: "You are lying, it is not as effective as saying "You are misguided."
Let's please try to be civilized.
Thank you.
ReplyDeleteAnd you made excellent points GHOST.
WILL - please try to see it from our point of view.
Where do you come from and what family upbringing makes you defend corporations that behave like this?
I'm just curious. I guess we each come from a different place, and if your parents were Wall Street banksters or CEOs who made fortunes, that would explain a lot.
I come from a very good family, but my parents always instilled in me a sense of taking care of those less fortunate, because we all end up there now and then.
A middle-school principal is retiring after approving a cash-for-grades fundraiser; the district ordered a stop to the fundraiser after finding out that students could buy 20 test points for $20
ReplyDeleteRead more: http://www.time.com/time/quotes
Well nice to see the concern troll has once again succeeded in defeating the facts by not even confronting them.
ReplyDeleteInstead of dealing with the plain and simple truth, i.e medicare requires funding to correct the relatively minimal problems (most department stores would do well to cut their fraud to 10 percent) with it, Will ran away, and emailed Lydia whining about "personal attacks".
Perhaps in one or two of my TWENTY FIVE POSTS, I slipped in a "lamebrain" or two.
Perhaps.
Don't recall.
Becuase my posts were not personal attacks, as is evident by the fact that Lydia had to say "I'm LOOKING for them now".
No, my posts were not personal attacks.
Just like medicare is not broken.
But the concern troll doesn't need to deal with all that. Instead he just does what he does best. DIVERSION.
DERAIL.
Instead of confronting my clear, simple and irrefutable fact, i.e that medicare requires funding to work, he instead simply throws a "lol" at it, then tries to drag me into a personal one on one argument, and when I REFUSE TO ENGAGE HIS ARGUMENTS, he whines to Lydia, who once more kicks at the football that Lucy\AKA\Will\ sets up for her, and walla.
No truth.
Wills neoconservative doctrine that medicare is broke becomes unchallenged, and even lost in the "shuffle".
The little Willyboy Shuffle.
Or better known as the "Potomac Two Step".
So kudos to the concern troll. You do your masters proud. Perhaps I underestimated your capability and cunning. Perhaps you are on par with your leaders. After all, you never fail here. You always accomplish what you set out to accomplish, and that is indeed an admirable trait.
My hats off to you.
And don't worry concern troll. You accomplished your "double header" here. I will of course immediately return to NOT posting further.
ReplyDeleteMy stomach is only so strong.
And I have a very low tolerance for gullibility.
And even a lower one for stupidity.
Being nice is one thing.
Being a sucker, is a whole nuther thing.
So bye bye troll.
The blog is yours again.
Should be safe for Volt to come back now.
ReplyDeleteI'll leave you with this thought Lydia.
ReplyDeleteYou laughed the other day when I pointed out how these trolls complaints in here about people "saying mean things to them" is like a Burglar, complaining to the owner of the house he is burglarizing about now stocking his favorite brand of beer in the fridge.
You seemed to enjoy that one, and acknowledged the veracity in that statement.
Yet here you are, just days later,....running out to buy them a six pack.
:|
Later.
The comment where he called me a one-celled mammal, etc. has been deleted. How convenient.
ReplyDeleteI have no great love for the insurance companies, Lydia. If you read my proposal (which is very similar to Obama adviser, Ezekial Emanuel's) closely, you'll see that I advocate a Federal board (Health Boards, I believe Emanuel calls them) to regulate them/set minimum standards (no more refusing people for preexisting conditions, etc.). My only point is that to vilify simply one character in this very complicated scenario is probably being short-sighted. It's just my opinion. If you don't agree with it, I don't have any great issue with that. It isn't haed science. You know what I'm saying?
ReplyDeleteI don't believe I've "lied" about anything, Lydia. There IS a 10% fraud rate (this fom a government study) in Medicare. The Democrats ARE cutting Medicare by 550 billion (so they're "underfunding" it even more). 50% of doctors DON"T accept Medicaid (which leads me to fears that Medicare won't be far behind - I hope I'm wrong). And, yes, another thing that concerns me (and Dr. Emanuel) is the fact that there are very few cost controls in Medicare. Procedure A (which, say, costs $10,000) may be no better than Procedure B (which costs, say, $2,000) - this, according to verifiable and replicated research findings - but Medicare will pay for either one. With baby boomers aging out, we just cannot sustain this. Again, my opinion. All I ask is that you consider it.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLydia, I've tried on more than a few occasions to be civil to Clif. He just doesn't seem to like it like that. I don't know why he doesn't like it that way, but he doesn't. I will try again. I know you and I got off to a bad start, but that was a year and a half ago. In my opinion, there ISN'T a problem now. Lydia, I edited my blog because you asked me to (remember?). I normally don't do that, but I wanted to show you that I was willing to act in good faith. I'm still acting in good faith. As for your other "contributor", I will no longer direct ANY comments in his direction. He is not a well man and I do not have the patience for him.
ReplyDeleteI stand by my statement, Lydia; "a one celled mammal like Will".
ReplyDeleteLike you're lying here.
ReplyDeleteWill "take no prisoners" Hart said...
And, yes, another thing that concerns me (and Dr. Emanuel) is the fact that there are very few cost controls in Medicare. Procedure A (which, say, costs $10,000) may be no better than Procedure B (which costs, say, $2,000) - this, according to verifiable and replicated research findings - but Medicare will pay for either one. With baby boomers aging out, we just cannot sustain this. Again, my opinion. All I ask is that you consider it.
Yes Concern troll, we all know it "concerns" you.
Once again you wait until I say goodbye, then come in and lie, ignoring the TWENTY FIVE POSTS where I clearly point out that FUNDING is the issue.
You are claiming we cannot sustain it, knowing damn good and well that if we would simply FUND it, then we could sustain it.
Of course we can't sustain it if we don't vote to fund it.
DUH.
So we vote to fund it, and take the trillions we're throwing at the insurance companies, banks and wars, and fund medicare.
Then we can not only sustain it, but we can expand it, to cover every single American in the country.
That's the facts, troll.
But you will ignore those, and instead whine to the Blog hostess about people saying mean things to you, or try to change the argument to a personal one on one with me over George Will, or whatever other distraction your puny mind can concoct.
Deal with facts troll.
And medicare will work or fail, based on whether or not we elect to fund it.
I never said a "one celled mammal like will", you liar.
ReplyDeleteLydia still has the comment I think. Even when you delete them they don't disappear. She deleted it, not I.
And I didn't say a "one cell mammal like will".
I said a "one celled mammal" standing next to them".
The comment was not even remotely about you.
You just heard the term "one celled mammal" and must have thought it fit you well.
The Democrats ARE cutting Medicare by 550 billion (so they're "underfunding" it even more).
ReplyDeleteNOT TRUE, they are cutting medicare advantage, the private insurance run competition to Medicare the republicans demanded, called medicare advantage.
To Wit;
Medicare is a social insurance program administered by the United States government, providing health insurance coverage to people who are aged 65 and over, or who meet other special criteria.
After the republicans took control of congress they demanded it;
To wit;
With the passage of the Balanced Budget Act of 1997, Medicare beneficiaries were given the option to receive their Medicare benefits through private health insurance plans, instead of through the original Medicare plan (Parts A and B). These programs were known as "Medicare+Choice" or "Part C" plans. Pursuant to the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act of 2003, "Medicare+Choice" plans were made more attractive to Medicare beneficiaries by the addition of prescription drug coverage and became known as "Medicare Advantage" (MA) plans.
Medicare is run by the government, and is NOT being cut, Medicare advantage is run by for profit corps and is being cut, in essence the democrats are saying the taxpayers do not need to further fill private insurance coffers when traditional; medicare does the same at lower costs.
Facts do matter even if they do not to you will.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHowever like all good concern trolls mouthing right wing republican talking points, will repeats this particular dishonest republican talking point regularly here.
ReplyDeleteThen screams we are being mean for calling him on it.
ReplyDeleteFortunately for the RNC, they have concern trolls out there with one goal in mind.
ReplyDeleteAnd that goal is not to push a radical neocon agenda.
And it is not to sell every RNC talking point.
No.
That would be too obvious.
Instead their goal is to sell the current RNC "Jingle", i.e. "Medicare is Broken".
When in fact, its just a matter of funding.
So they sell that "Jingle", as you PLEAD with Lydia to just "consider your CONCERNS", and try to seed the false lie that medicare doesn't work.
Medicare does work.
But instead we have the "Concern Trolls" to try to remove the idea of expanding medicare altogether.
We've all seen the RNC fears and warnings to their members that if this passes, Democrats will rule for decades.
So the RNC is desperate.
And they are sending out their concern trolls across the internet, in blogs everywhere, to try and sell "open minded" progressives and liberals on the notion that "MEDICARE DOESN'T WORK", and on the idea of adopting a plan that involves keeping the major insurance companies going, who are the cause of the problem in the first place.
Think about it.
Its brilliant indeed.
Vote against funding a program, and then complain when the underfunded program struggles.
Convince people government doesn't work, then draft a program in the Senate that is guaranteed not to work.
The republican leadership has been caught repeated warning their people that if medicare is expanded to cover everyone, then they will never regain control of the Congress and the Oval Office.
So they send out concern trolls, not to sell every right wing talking point out there, but to act "reasonable" and just plead with bloggers to "consider" their right wing masters claims that "MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
And those concern trolls are quite effective, and they fool the very best among us.
Which is part of the shtick he has used since day one.
ReplyDeleteAll the trolls use they are abused here shtick, which is baloney, they throw but cry when receiving back.
clif said...
ReplyDeleteThen screams we are being mean for calling him on it.
Exactly.
He's actually quite brilliant if you think about it.
Like a skilled artisan he plays off of Lydia's sense of fair play and decency, to try and distract from his own being busted yet again, as nothing more than a lying, right wing concern troll.
If we fund Medicare, all of his "CONCERNS" disappear.
But he refuses to deal with that.
Instead he plays the obfuscation game, and it works.
clif said...
ReplyDeleteWhich is part of the shtick he has used since day one.
All the trolls use they are abused here shtick, which is baloney, they throw but cry when receiving back.
Yup. That's the irony of it.
THEY'RE the ones who have been coming in to derail and detract, and they've insulted you and your service to our country more times than I can shake a stick at.
And yet THEY have the nerve to complain about people being mean to them.
Like I said, its like a burglar, whining to the homeowner about not stocking his favorite brand of beer in the fridge.
Its ludicrous.
But somehow, it works.
I've said for YEARS now that the repugs underfund Medicare and set it up to fail then CLAIM its "Broken"..........and you are ABSOLUTELY right that all the repug knuckle draggers do is use propaganda and dumb things down with stupid jingles and sound bites to brainwash, deceive and mislead the the ignorant EXACTLY like the Nazi's did.
ReplyDeleteTell me something Will...........you've voiced your outrage time after time when myself or ANYONE else has compared the repugs to Nazi's, even when we've provided "specific" facts on EXACTLY what behaviors actions and words they have used that are similar or the same not just outragious "CLAIMS" of similarity.........and yet now that MANY repugs are comparing both the effort to reform health care as well as specific Demacrats to the Holocaust and Nazi's I dont hear a peep out of you..........no outrage, no condemnation NOTHING.
I have to say I find that quite interesting kind of like the time you wrote over 50 posts criticizing Olberman but then only "CLAIMED" to criticize hannity while never actually criticizing him AT ALL!
Ok.........i'm actually gonna give Will the benefit of the doubt here I mean where does he live again?
ReplyDeleteOh yeah Connecticut which just coincidentally happens to be the health care capital of the entire WORLD I mean give the guy a break, I mean with all the lobbyists on the payroll in Connecicutt and with all the money the health care companies pay their CEO's, and with all the money they spend on an ARMY of lobbyists, and with all the money they spend and saturating the media with lies, dishonest jingles, propaganda and talking points, and with all the overtime for mobilizing their workers to fight a media war and pretend to a phony grassroots movement not to mention all the perks, kickbacks, retreats, training etc they give out to employees it must be hard to show even a 4% profit even when gross profits are up almost 450% which is fairly unprescedented.
its kinda like the Billionaire worth 40 Billion hiding most of his money in offshore accounts and tax shelters CLAIMING he is entitled to pay less of a percentage of his wealth in taxes than a teacher or nursing home worker earning $40,000............or a hedge fund trader worth billions CLAIMING that the working class should pay a national sales tax on food and clothes but its blasphemy to want to tax hedge fund trades or the incomes of hedge fund traders.
Looks like some unfavorable facts came on............wonder how long it will be till one of ERIC's sockpuppets come in to derail, distract and bury any unfavorable facts!
ReplyDeleteI also find it "interesting" that Will is silent about Hanitty and Faux news lying and misrepresenting the crowd from the 9/12 rally as the Tea baggers...................Voltron's silence on this isnt surprising a bit though.
ReplyDeleteWill I think your this blog's Joe Lieberman!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI mean lets take a look at all the jingles the repugs have used over the last 8 or so years shall we
ReplyDelete1) Medicare is broken
2) War On Terror
3) Lets fight em over there so we dont have to fight em here
4) Times up......(for the push to attack Iraq)
5) Wars inevtable........(for the push to attack Iraq)
6) Obama/Osama........comparing Obama to a Muslim terrorist
7) Barack Hussein Obama.........to imply Obama is a Muslim and cant be trusted
8) Obama is a Socialist
9) Obama's Czars.......implying he is really a communist
10) Government is ALWAYS the problem
11) Tax and spend liberrals.........when repugs have blown budget far more than dems
12) Tax cuts increase revenue.
13) Noun/verb plus 9/11
14) liberals are weak on national security........ONLY repugs can keep us safe.
15) Demacrats/liberals are unpatriotic
16) being against the war is being against the troops/hating the troops.
17) Demacrats hate America
18) Demacrats want the terrorists to win........are in league with terrorists.
19) Demacrats are Surrender Monkeys
20) Reagan cut taxes
21) No New Taxes
22) speak no ill of a repug........in other words telling the truth is forbidden if it is politically damaging
Will is the blogs version of Joe Lieberman,
ReplyDeleteClassic.
Hey, Mike. Except for my concerns over Medicare (which Dr. Emanuel also has), I've never uttered a single one of those things. In fact, I was against the Iraq War WAY before Clinton, Biden, and Kerry were. And I was against the Afghan build-up way before you guys were. I just don't like wars, period. Leibermann? I used to like him until he got all hawkish on me (I voted for Lamant in '06). And I'll surprise you here, I think that there SHOULD be an up-and-down vote on the healthcare bill. I want every one of these Senators to be on the record here. I would personally prefer that they start all over BUT democracy is democracy.
ReplyDeleteMike, I invite you to check out my blog some time. I think you'll notice that I criticize Fox News regularly, Hannity included.
ReplyDeleteWill "take no prisoners" Hart said...
ReplyDeleteHey, Mike. Except for my concerns over Medicare (which Dr. Emanuel also has), I've never uttered a single one of those things. In fact, I was against the Iraq War WAY before Clinton, Biden, and Kerry were."
Well Will I never said YOU did, never mentioned the Iraq war either, I was focusing on the repugs.news media and health care.
the issues I addressed YOU specifically on were the repugs/media comparing health care reform/demacrats to the Holocaust/Nazi's something you have shown outrage when liberals do even when supported by facts and specific examples and something you seem to fail to address at all no less show the same level of outrage when done by repugs.Faux News to health care reform/demacrats?
Will said "And I'll surprise you here, I think that there SHOULD be an up-and-down vote on the healthcare bill. I want every one of these Senators to be on the record here. I would personally prefer that they start all over BUT democracy is democracy."
ReplyDeleteWell on that I agree.........the Fillibuster NEEDS to be broken, Democracy and the will ofthe people NEED to carry the day NOT the will of the corporations and lobbyists.
I also stated that net profits can be very misleading particularly during a year when EVERYONE KNEW health care reform would be an issue during the WORST economic implosion sine the Great Depression 80 years ago...........kinda like the billionare worth 40 billion hiding much of his income and assets in off shore accounts and tax shelters and claiming to be entitled to paying the same tax rate as the teacher or secretary making $40,000.
ReplyDeleteThose idiots in the crowd comparing Obama to Hitler are disgraceful, Mike. People can and should have open and honest debates on this issue, but they should keep their paranoid bigotry to themselves.
ReplyDeleteI've removed the comment where I stated I hadn't called Will a one celled mammal. I in fact had, however only after he repeatedly tried to engage me in a tit for tat debate over anything other than the issue.
ReplyDeleteAlso, as I said last night I won't linger, as I'm tired of putting the pieces together for people who never seem to get it.
This is a puzzle you'll have to put together on your own.
But I will leave you with this.
Will demanded I provide one quote of his that sold the neocon agenda.
Well, I don't need to. Because all of his posts have been doing that for anyone with two eyes and a brain to see.
The neocon agenda right now is to over hype the fraud in medicare, and convince Americans that "Medicare is Broken".
Will's agenda right now, is to over hype the fraud in medicare, and convince Americans that Medicare is broken.
Will's arguments against medicare can be seen on any of the "news shows" on Fox News, right now. Just turn it on, and you'll see all of Will's "Concerns" over medicare being touted by the braindead pundits of Fox, which is the right arm of the Republican party, and the herald of the Neoconservative agenda.
And like Fox, Will's arguments ignore several critical facts.
1. 10 percent fraud is not that high of a figure.
2. Like Fox, he ignores the 90 percent that is legitimate.
3. Like Fox, he ignores that the Insurance companies also have a 10 percent fraud rate.
4. He ignores the current order of the Obama administration to reduce fraud via Health and Human Services, and bring it down to 8 percent by 2012.
5. He ignores the massive funds Insurance companies employ to fight fraud. Obviously if we funded Medicare oversight, we'd dramatically reduce fraud.
Like Fox and the Neocons, Will is here arguing against the idea of expanding medicare to all Americans, even though its the only solution out there that would ensure coverage to all Americans that is "Doable".
He ignores the fact that the infrastructure is already in place.
He ignores that funding is what it lacks, and with proper funding Medicare could be expanded to cover every man, woman and child in the US.
He ignores all that, and instead sells his neoconservative "JINGLE", that "MEDICARE IS BROKEN" and tries to get people worked up about "10 percent fraud".
If I had large corporation that had only a 10 percent fraud rate, I'd have a business that was doing pretty damn well. Just ask Nordstroms, or JC Penny, who operate on 4 and 5 times that much fraud. Will doesn't want you to focus on the 90 percent thats legit. He just wants to convince you, that "Medicare is Broken". Because like the neocons, he's terrified of President Obama actually succeeding at giving the people medicare.
On CNN and MSNBC last week, we saw the republican tweets warning that if medicare is expanded to cover all Americans, then the RNC would be out of a job for a long time to come.
We saw the panic, as republicans sent out orders to ensure that Medicare is attacked ferociously to defeat any real health care bill that would actually work.
And so the republicans seeing change on the horizon, have made a massive concerted effort to get all of their consituents arguing for funding INSURANCE COMPANIES, (who ARE the problem ) and no Medicare.
They're out trying to actively seed the notion that "Medicare is broken", and not surprisingly, so is Will.
So there's Will's "NEOCONSERVATIVE TALKING POINTS"
There's Wills Neocon agenda.
But don't believe it. Placate to him and give him the benefit of the doubt.
Let him focus on one silly name I called him out of a few dozen lengthy detailed posts that he failed to address.
Because that's what he does, and he does it well.
I'm done putting this puzzle together for people.
If this country is ever going to really defeat the neocon agenda, then people are going to have to wise up enough to recognize it.
And that clearly isn't happening.
Just for the record, Lydia, I got that 10% Medicare fraud number NOT from Fox News (which I consistently criticize for bias) or the RNC (which I NEVER access) but form Dr. Ezekial Emanuel's book, "Healthcare, Guaranteed". Dr. Emanuel is an adviser (or he was) to who? Oh, yeah, President Barack Obama. And Dr. Emanuel seems to think that 10% is pretty darn high. He also seems to think that it's much worse than private insurance (a belief reinforced by newsvine.com - private insurance fraud they site as constituting 3%). And I'm not sure what your "contributor" means when he says that JC Penney has a 40-50% fraud rate. It sounds like kind of a bizarre statement to say the least.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Lydia, I don't think that your "contributor" knows exactly what neoconservatism is. According to Wikipedia, Neoconservatism is a "philosophy which supports using American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries. In economics, unlike traditional conservatives, neoconservatives are GENERALLY COMFORTABLE WITH A WELFARE STATE (my emphasis). And, yes, these are both things that displease traditional conservatives like George Will and Pat Buchanan. They don't like neoconservatives any more than we do. You know what this is about, Lydia, right? You "contributor" just doesn't like to be disagreed with. He doesn't have the maturity and/or emotional intelligence to handle it. And, yes, this is why he's constantly attacking/labeling people. He's basically a child, in other words.
ReplyDeleteThe troll keeps trying to make it personal when in fact I'm attacking his positions, not him.
ReplyDeleteOh sure I might throw in a "bootlicker" or a "lamebrain" or two.
But I have consistently attacked his positions, not him.
But as each and every post of WIlls, he never takes any time to address the facts I produce. Instead he tries to turn it into a he said she said tit for tat debate, rather than address the facts.
FACT. The neoconservative mainstream is active trying to attack and discredit Medicare.
FACT. As usual we find Will here selling the current talking point of the neoconservative right.
So whether he's a neoconservative concern troll by intent or by design is pretty much moot.
His positions as usual, are their positions.
And after a few years of seeing his positions are their positions, the question of whether or not he's a concern troll evolves into a question of whether or not he's being paid for it.
The center of neo-con foreign policy is the unmitigated defense of the apartheid state of Israel, which fits you to a tee widdle one.
ReplyDeleteConcerned Will said...
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't have the maturity and/or emotional intelligence to handle it. And, yes, this is why he's constantly attacking/labeling people. He's basically a child, in other words.
For a guy who spends his time not responding to the issues I address but instead whining to Lydia about "personal attacks",.... well.....you get the point.
Its easier to whine to the Blog Hostess than respond to the facts.
ReplyDeleteMost "moderate liberals" don't refer to national health care coverage as a "WELFARE STATE".
ReplyDeleteThe neocons call it that.
In fact its one of their favorite terminologies.
Clif, when it comes to Israel, I'm totally in line with former President Bill Clinton. I was also very proud of the tireless efforts he made to bring a peace to that region. I probably should have voted for him at least once (insted of Perot X 2).
ReplyDeleteAnd what Will's statistics leaves out, or more properly put, what HE leaves out in presenting them, is that Health Insurance Carriers spend millions on Fraud prevention and prosecution each year.
ReplyDelete1. Every $2 million invested in fighting health-care fraud returns $17.3 million in recoveries, court-ordered judgments, plus bogus claims that weren’t paid and other anti-fraud savings. (National Health Care Anti-Fraud Association, 2008)
1. The average health insurer’s anti-fraud investigative unit has an annual budget of slightly more than $1.9 million and 19 fulltime employees. (ibid)
And of course that President Obama is working to reduce fraud over the next 4 years.
Will tries to act like his 10 percent figure is being challenged, although no one ever did.
We just don't sell the right wing ideology of throwing out the 90 percent for the 10.
Medicare works, 90 percent of the time. 10 percent is a manageable figure.
But for some reason, Will wants to convince people in here that medicare won't work, and that that 10 percent means its broken and couldn't possibly cover us.
But the fact is, that 10 percent is not a prohibitive figure, and insurance carriers suffer similar losses depending on who's numbers you want to believe.
This is what Wiki has to say on it;
The National Health Care Anti-Fraud Association estimates that 3% of the health care industry’s expenditures in the United States are due to fraudulent activities, amounting to a cost of about $51 billion.[8] Other estimates attribute as much as 10% of the total healthcare spending in the United States to fraud—about $115 billion annually
So whether its 3 percent, or 10, we still must account for the fact that the Health Insurance companies invest millions annually in detection, prevention and prosecution of fraud, and that is something that FUNDING for Medicare would facilitate as well.
So the truth is Medicare does work, and it works for tens of millions of Americans every day.
Just try to take it away from an old person.
In fact, the real irony here, is these "TEABAGGERS" managed to rally the old people by telling them that the Democrats wanted to TAKE AWAY THEIR MEDICARE!
lol
Think about it.
They rallied millions of senior citizens by telling them the government wants to take away their medicare.
Then they send their minions out into blogs and onto talk shows across the country, to try to convince people "MEDICARE IS BROKEN" and "MEDICARE DOESN'T WORK".
And here's Will, who for days now has been trying desperately to sell their argument, that Medicare doesn't work.
:|
Seriously, is this really that hard of a puzzle to put together?
According to the Wikipedia definition, Clif, I'm not even close to being a neocon. War, in my good book, is the very LAST resort. And I think I've proven that I'm to the LEFT of you on gay marriage, gays in the military, etc......Plus, where is it stated that everybody has to agree with everybody else? Talk about a sure fire course to extinction.
ReplyDeleteIf Medicare is so broken, then how was the RNC Teabag machine able to rally tens of thousands of seniors to turn out around the country to their "tea party's" by telling them they might lose their Medicare?
ReplyDelete:D
It boggles the mind.
Well, I'll let the concern troll wriggle and plead some more for you to believe him that he really isn't one because he agrees with the liberals on sooo very much.
ReplyDeleteExcept of course on whatever happens to be the current agenda of the Right Wing.
In that, his path always seems to diverge.
"Healthcare, Guaranteed" by Dr. Ezekial Emanuel. Clif, please read it. He's NOT a right-winger. In fact he's totally NONPARTISAN. And outside of the box. P.S. He actually wants to fade out Medicare completely. Keep it for those currently in it but get everybody else into his system.
ReplyDeleteYea pleeeeeeese Clif.... read it....pleaaaaaase believe him....because its sooooooooo very important that he convinces you that Medicare is broken.
ReplyDeleteIts just a "Coinkydink" that the RNC is currently steamrolling the exact same message.
:|
Just another coinkydink.
Clif, the other contributor is trying to get you to believe that Dr. Emanuel (an Obama adviser) is part of the RNC/right-wing. Now THAT boggles the mind. And what if I do agree with a Republican here and there (like, say, when Lindsey Graham bitch-slapped Glenn Beck). THAT makes me a bad person? Obama's put a bunch of 'em in his cabinet.
ReplyDeleteClif, the RNC isn't advocating for health boards, minimum standards of coverage, etc.. Yet again, this guy tries to punch a round peg in a square hole.
ReplyDeleteNo, the other "contributor" is not trying to convince you of anything about Doctor Emmanuel.
ReplyDeleteThat's just another lie from Will.
In fact, I challenge the concern troll to produce a comment where I even mentioned Dr Emmanuels name.
ReplyDeleteIf he wants to prove that he didn't just make that up, that is.
ReplyDeleteFact. The RNC current talking point is "Medicare is Broken".
ReplyDeleteFact. So is Wills.
But like I said earlier.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure its just another one of his coinkydinks.
The plan will touts says this;
ReplyDeleteGuaranteed health care for all Americans: Every American would receive a healthcare certificate from the Federal government that would guarantee and pay for defined health services from a qualified health plan.
(from at a glance page)
Right, the tea baggers would go completely batsh*t insane with this suggestion.
Uncle Sam paying for EVERYONES health care?
Can you say single payer will?
Don't believe me go to their website will;
About HealthCare Guaranteed
Our organization is dedicated to the proposition that every US citizen should have access to effective, affordable and essential health care, and furthermore, that the Guaranteed HealthCare Access Plan (GHAP) is the best means of achieving that vision. GHAP was initially introduced into the public debate in early-2005 in an article co-authored by Ezekiel Emanuel and Victor Fuchs that appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine. Since that time, the concept has steadily gained credibility, particularly among academics and policy think tanks, but still remains relatively unknown among elected officials and the general public.
We want to change that.
(From the organization page)
and they want new taxes to pay for it.
Funding by an earmarked tax: Funding for the healthcare certificates would come from an earmarked tax – a value-added tax, or similarly discrete, dedicated tax.
(from at a glance page)
Good luck getting that passed congress after the right wing tea baggin tom foolery.
Damn I thought you were against single payer?
Only this single payer is to enrich the insurance industry with new taxes to pat for that enrichment.
They want to privatize the profits for the health care insurance industry and socialize the costs with new taxes.
they say so not me.
That is the great plan you tout will?
really?
Hope the republicans don't filibuster it too badly.
Cause when you say the government is gonna pay for everyones health care insurance, and raise taxes to do so, ND end Medicare, last August's town halls will seem quiet in comparison to the hell that will break loose from the tea baggin and right wing crowd.
Damn I thought he had a real plan.
At least you claimed he did.
Over and over while screeching Medicare is broke (not the most honest thing you have said here by a long shot) or should I say one of the most disingenuous things you have claimed ........
Worf has been insulting people here for a long time, and thinks everyone is a liar but himself.
ReplyDeleteThis is a free country.
ReplyDeleteWorf maybe right, but God help those that don't agree with Worf.
He will rant and rave to hell and back, until he rids them from this weblog.
Worf rules this weblog with an iron fist, and Lord help those that get in the Masters way.
ReplyDeleteWorf is the blog censor, and removes posts that he deems unacceptable.
ReplyDeleteClif, you're making my point. I'm espousing a plan that the right-wingers WON'T LIKE. And I don't think that I ever said that "Medicare was broken." I said that Medicare "wasn't necessarily the panacea that the left constantly says that it is" and that it had some serious "issues". And my overall point was that maybe we shouldn't be expanding it before we can fix those issues. That's just my opinion, Clif. I could be frigging wrong. None of this frigging stuff is hard science, dude.
ReplyDeleteClif, the contributor is saying that my views come from the RNC. I am telling you folks that they DO NOT. They come from Dr. Emanuel's plan. I'm making a logical extension here; this, in that, if I'm a part of the right wing smear machine, so, too, must Dr. Emanuel be (this, in that that's where I'm getting a lot of my ideas, etc.).
ReplyDeleteAgain, Clif, the RNC/tea baggers aren't advocating for health boards, the setting up of minimal coverage standards, etc.. I AM. Being that the selectively perceiving contributor (who seemingly wants everybody to agree with him 100%) hasn't acknowledged this, I thought that maybe I'd point it out again.
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you what, Clif. If Obama can significantly reduce Medicare fraud (maybe throw a few more cost controls in there, too), I will personally, PERSONALLY, put him up on MT. Rushmore. Well, if he does that and also keeps us out of a quagmire in Afghanistan.
ReplyDeleteI have 4 words for President Obama; listen to General Jones. Don't be like Mr. Bush who DIDN'T listen to General Powell. Yeah, I know, that was more than 4 words.
ReplyDeleteWill "take no prisoners" Hart said...
ReplyDeleteClif, the contributor is saying that my views come from the RNC.
Yet another straw argument by the "concerned" contributor.
I said they're the "SAME" as the RNC's.
And they are.
So stop lying.
The RNC is out actively trying to discredit medicare.
And so are you.
Nice to see will can't actually comment on what I posted,
ReplyDeleteThe fact the plan he keeps touting is DOA according to the tea baggin right wing fooles the republicans are currently bowing down to all over the country.
I other words he is pushing a plan that wants to eliminate Medicare but has no change of passing, and will has no real comment just more word salad incoherency.
Will wants a plan that will fail to get passed
ReplyDeleteEnd result nothing changes,
Which is what Wall Street and the insurance industry really wants,
and he wonders why we call him a concern troll?
And now he's trying to softpedal his repeated warnings against medicare and his defense of the insurance industry.
ReplyDeleteFirst, he came in and defended the Health Insurance giants.
Thanks Worf;
The email isn't all President Obama did on veterans day.
6:32 PM
Blogger Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
Lydia, according to U.S. News and World Feport, the profit margin for the health insurance industry as a whole was 3.4%. Compare this to the oil and gas industry which made 10.2% or, better yet, the beverage industry at 24%....Then, of course, there's Google at 20.6% and Microsoft at 24.9%. As for individual health insurance companies, you have United Health Group at 4.1% and Wellpoint at 4%. These are the facts. Now, sure, one could argue that ANY profit when it comes to heathcare is too costly. But for people to single out THIS one industry as voraciously greedy is kind of ridiculous.
Then, after this initial post defending the insurance companies and a brief exchange with Clif, he proceeds to attack medicare.
Blogger Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
As for Medicare, Lydia, it's certainly not the panacea that those on the left have been articulating lately. Yes, the administrative costs are low (3%). But the fraud and mismanagement are legendary. The last time they (the government) did a study on Medicare fraud, they found it to represent 10% of the overall budget. That isn't very good. And now, with the government cutting another 500 billion out of reimbursements to doctors and hospitals, etc., this will strap the system even more. Doctors will be forced either to 1) take a hit, 2) pass the costs on to those NOT on Medicare, or 3) just stop taking Medicare patients all-together (like they're already doing now with Medicaid patients). My solution (as I think I've stated before) would be to 1) get rid of the barriers to interstate insurance purchasing, 2) provide vouchers for people to purchase this insurance, and 3) create a Federal oversight board (kind of like the Fed in banking - my good buddy, Volt, probably won't like this part of the plan) to set minimum coverage standards (no more preexisting condition bullshit, etc.) and resolve malpractice disputes. Is it a perfect plan? No. But it 1) keeps the Feds out of another Post Office scenario and 2) keeps the insurance companies a lot more honest. Oh, and, yes, it helps in the area of increasing competition, too.
Notice the terms.
Their fraud is "LEGENDARY", even though its only 10 percent.
He acts like the 10 percent is a hopeless figure.
Then, he ignores the fact that the very idea we're discussing is FUNDING medicare to extend coverage to everyone, and proceeds to act like the government cutting back on it now would somehow not be impacted if we voted to FUND it.
He's actually trying to shoot down the idea of FUNDING MEDICARE to cover everyone, by pointing to a lack of funds.
Amazing.
Then, he goes on to create FABRICATED SCENARIOS about his "fears" that "doctors wouldn't take it", etc.
Which of course once again is COMPLETELY NEGATED if we simply FUND it.
Like we're discussing.
So lets summarize.
ReplyDelete1. Will comes in, and starts out by first defending big insurance.
2. Then he proceeds to attack and discredit medicare, by overhyping the issues and FABRICATING scenarios of things which he "FEARS MIGHT" happen.
3. Then he proceeds to suggest we rally behind a plan, that is doomed to fail out of the gate.
:|
But he's no concern troll.
:|
ReplyDeleteIts just all a series of amazing coinkydinks.
Worf, the "plan" will keeps pushing has this as a central tenet;
ReplyDeletePhasing out of Medicare, and Medicaid and other means-tested programs: There would be no new enrollees in Medicare, Medicaid and other government healthcare programs. People currently enrolled in these programs would have the option of continuing or joining GHAP.
The plan will pushes does away with Medicare, and hands tax payer money directly to the private for profit insurance industry .... interesting don't you think?
The republican mantra of privatization on steroids,
ReplyDeleteDoing to health care industry what Blackwater and KBR did to the military .... underfunding the people in uniform so the greedy GOPer campaign donaters can clean up with substandard service as private contractors.
And we end up with more expensive over paid private insurance people just like we have private contractors in Iraq making much more then the people who volunteer and serve in uniform.
Typical concern troll in action pushing the GOPer agenda while denying that is what he is doing.
clif said...
ReplyDeleteWorf, the "plan" will keeps pushing has this as a central tenet;
Phasing out of Medicare, and Medicaid and other means-tested programs: There would be no new enrollees in Medicare, Medicaid and other government healthcare programs. People currently enrolled in these programs would have the option of continuing or joining GHAP.
The plan will pushes does away with Medicare, and hands tax payer money directly to the private for profit insurance industry .... interesting don't you think?
Yes. It is Clif.
Another example of Will attacking Medicare.
The RNC sent out marching orders to attack Medicare.
And here's Will, doing that very thing.
Of course, if we're to believe Will, its all just a zany series of Coinkydinks.
ReplyDelete:\
That have continued for a couple years now.
Which is why will won't directly address the post where he is exposed as trying to end Medicare like the republicans have wanted to do since the 1960's
ReplyDeleteLike his claim he never said he was a liberal, he is caught being sooooooo.... disingenuous again.
will has nothing directly to comment about it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHe never addresses the actual posts that refute his nonsense.
ReplyDeleteLike he never addressed the fact that funding would negate all of his nonsense "predictions" about medicare going broke.
Think about it.
He actually was arguing against the idea of FUNDING medicare, by POINTING TO A LACK OF FUNDING.
:|
It really boggles the mind.
Instead his buddy anonymous wades in to distract from the thread,
ReplyDeleteThen will posts numerous unrelated posts which make little sense.
Nothing directly on point about the plan pushed continuously by will ENDING MEDICARE at all.
Not a peep, just nonsense waste of bandwidth, something he seems quite good at.
And instead of addressing the issues that expose his ridiculous nonsense, like your exposing his plan as doing away with Medicare, he instead just whines to Lydia about everyone being mean to him and picking on him.
ReplyDeleteWhen in fact, we're just addressing WHAT HE SAYS.
Of course he doesn't post now because he has been exposed as the disingenuous person he has always been here.
ReplyDeleteThe more clearly we expose his lies, the louder he blubbers, until he manages to distract from the arguments against what he says and turns it into something all about him, and how mean people are to him.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately it often works.
clif said...
ReplyDeleteOf course he doesn't post now because he has been exposed as the disingenuous person he has always been here.
You know it. Its his usual method of operation.
Has been for years.
Now that his lies are directly exposed, he clams up.
And when he does come back, it will be not to address the facts, but to "pretend" to address them, (with a dismissive sentence and a lol or two) but instead whine about how terrible we are, and how precious and pure his intent here is.
:|
Its like a monotonous Soap Opera.
And lets of course not forget the anonymous crusty\cowboy\whatever who always seems to come in when he's struggling, to help shore up his "making it personal" by attacking me or you (usually me) and trying to keep it personal.
ReplyDeleteIts a calliope.
It just goes around, and around and around. Never getting anywhere.
Just always right back where we started.
"waaahhhh waahhhhhh Lydia they're being mean to me again.....waahhhhhhh wahhhhhhhh"
a monotonous Soap Opera.
ReplyDeleteHmmmm ..... there is a certain blog that resembles that remark.
Dulltrons?
ReplyDeleteWow, good to see that we're fully prepared to maturely discuss these issues, not engage in poinless labelling, demonizing, etc.. Just one point. My proposal, which I fully delinated here, did not say anything about phasing out Medicare. That IS a part of Emauel's plan - true. But I never said that my plan was identical to his. Though, yes, I'm persudable.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, Lydia, are you not at least a little embarrassed by these guys. This is not at all normal behavior. You're aware of that, right?
ReplyDeleteHow did we know he'd come in and try to make it "all about him"?
ReplyDeleteRather than his words that we addressed?
How'd we do that?
How'd we predict that the more we focused on his actual words, the harder he'd cry, and go running to Lydia to try and stir up more trouble, rather than simply addressing the facts we produced?
ReplyDeleteHow'd we know that?
How'd we predict that so accurately just an hour earlier?
ReplyDelete:|
Could it be because this is what he has been doing for years now?
Could that be it?
Like Sarah Palin, when people pose legitimate facts that are contrary to her ramblings, this "concerned contributor" cries about people picking on him, rather than deal with the untidy things,.... like facts.
ReplyDeleteSo lets repose them, so he cannot bury them in his incessant protests to Lydia over his plight.
ReplyDelete1. The RNC's current major talking point is to discredit Medicare.
2. So is Will's.
3. The RNC is also working to defend insurance companies, rallying people to "TEA PARTIES" around the country to shout down any conversation over health care reform that is critical to insurance companies.
ReplyDelete4. Will started his latest "concerned contribution" by defending the health care industry and protesting Lydia's portrayal of them.
But he's not a concern troll.
ReplyDelete:|
He just writes like one.
Its all a series of coinkydinks.
ReplyDeleteI'm not big fan of Medicare (a sacred cow?) - as it is. Nope. And I'm not a big fan of taking a complicated issue and reducing it to good guys and bad guys. Now, for the umteenth time, I've taken my inspiration NOT FROM FOX NEWS/THE RNC but from a book by AN OBAMA ADVISER. "Defending the healthcare industry" - simply saying that one group alone isn't the entire cause of the problem is defending that group? This, when my proposal had something in it that would seriously regulate this same industry. Again, folks, he simply cannot tolerate being disagreed with. I have never seen such childlike/paranoid behavior in my life - AND I'VE WORKED IN HUMAN SERVICES FOR 30 YEARS!!!!!!! LOL
ReplyDeleteAnd for the umpteenth time, no one said anything about "where you get your information from".
ReplyDeleteWill "take no prisoners" Hart said...
ReplyDeleteAgain, folks, he simply cannot tolerate being disagreed with. I have never seen such childlike/paranoid behavior in my life
Childlike behavior and paranoid?
A minute ago you were whining about personal attacks on peoples character.
:|
Guess you don't include yourself in your own dictates.
I think everyone sees the real problem isn't with Worf, Clif, or anyone other than the concerned contributor who cannot handle being confronted on the issues he tries to push in here.
ReplyDeleteWhenever he is confronted, he turns to diversion and distraction, whining to the blog hostess about the other kids picking on him, and trying to stir up trouble to deflect from the issues.
When that doesn't work, he simply "invents" issues to debate, as we see here with his repeated "responses" to an argument that no one made.
No one said where he gets his information, least not me. Yet he keeps "responding" as if I had.
Because he cannot confront the simple facts I produced.
Note all Clif and I have done is address WHAT HE SAID.
ReplyDeleteBoth of us have long known him to be a concern troll, and that bothers him.
So he invents "personal attacks" no one made, and laments them over and over, whining about how "messed up" we are.
Yet over and over and over, all Clif or I have done is address his actual words.
That we may throw in a "lamebrain" or two, is not in doubt. What is also not in doubt is that makes up one tiny iota of our posts to him. The overwhelming majority of what we write, deals with WHAT HE IS SAYING.
And he clearly doesn't like that.
Fact. The RNC is out actively trying to defend insurance companies and discredit Medicare.
ReplyDeleteFact. So is Will. So says his own words.
Hey will, here's another study you can tout,
ReplyDeleteChamber seeks ‘respected economist’ to back predetermined conclusion
The US Chamber of Commerce, one of the leading opponents of both health care reform and climate change legislation, is soliciting for donations to hire a "respected economist" to study how health care legislation will affect jobs and the economy -- but the chamber apparently already knows what the results will be.
An email sent from the chamber to supporters last week, and obtained by the Washington Post, states that the group -- which bills itself as the US's largest business advocacy organization -- needs $50,000 to hire an economist to study the impact of the proposed health care reform legislation on jobs and the economy as a whole.
Then, the email states, "the economist will ... circulate a sign-on letter to hundreds of other economists saying that the bill will kill jobs and hurt the economy. We will then be able to use this open letter to produce advertisements, and as a powerful lobbying and grass-roots document."
While it's no secret that special-interest groups commission studies designed to give them their desired political results, it's rare that the tactic would be executed so publicly as to solicit donations for the plan.
That study was quickly attacked as a "threat" by insurance companies against the public, and was largely seen as having backfired. PricewaterhouseCoopers ended up distancing itself from the study, and admitting it had left out key elements of health reform in its analysis.
The planned study from the Chamber of Commerce "smells very political," said Chris Jennings, a former health care adviser in the Clinton administration, to the Washington Post. "Obviously, the memo suggests both the analysis and its use is preordained."
After news of the email broke Monday morning, the Chamber appeared to soften its stance that the study would inevitably result in a negative assessment of the job market's prospects.
"It is highly likely that this bill will increase costs for business and cost jobs," wrote Brad Peck at the chamber's ChamberPost blog. "If it shows the opposite, so be it."
The Associated Press reported last month that the chamber spent close to $35 million in just the third quarter of 2009 alone lobbying against the Obama administration on health care, climate change and financial regulation, making it the top spender among groups lobbying on the health care issue.
After all they seem to use your methodology,
Try to cherry pick factoids to fit your predetermined conclusions.
I was CONSISTENTLY accused of getting my facts from Fox News and the RNC. I am merely correcting that "misguided" piece of information (Lydia prefers that we not use the word lie and I am willing to comply). Another piece of false information is that I E-mailed Lydia and complained to her. That is utterly false. I just pointed out on this blog that certain people were not adhering to her wishes (this, after I had made my points calmly and dispassionately). And I never said ANYBODY had to agree with my conclusions or share my opinions. I'm an adult and welcome divergent viewpoints. What I don't like is being the object of paranoid accusations (Voltron and I are the same person, I'm a secret agent for the far-right, etc.). My opinions are my opinions and if you don't like them, fine. Just try and be a grown-up about it. The Chamber of Commerce, Clif? I've never even mentioed the Chamber of Commerce. Can you say strawman? And, come on, Clif, you're the biggest frigging cherry-picker of all. That proposal I put forth (and you basically acknowledged it) had just as much in it that the far-right would object to as the far-left. This, and yet, you only put forth the data that fits your pre-existing theory; that I'm a secret-agent right-winger, etc.. Let me tell you something, Clif (and, yes, this may somewhat surprise you in that you're isolated). There's a large segment of the American public that doesn't like either party, that doesn't like Keith Olbermann OR Sean Hannity. And WE (who reject these mindlessly partisan dichotomies) decide the elections. You better come to grips with that, brother.
ReplyDeleteThe Republicans are attacking Medicare? I haven't heard very much about that. I didn't think that they had the guts to do something like that (fearful of losing the senior vote). And it's you guys who are always inventing strawmen; the Chamber of Commerce, tea baggers. I never once defended frigging tea baggers. I mean, sure, I don't constantly make fun of them like you guys do, but I don't frigging defend them, either. Best not to stereotype, Clif; my favorite "liberal" principle.
ReplyDeleteWill "take no prisoners" Hart said...
ReplyDeleteI was CONSISTENTLY accused of getting my facts from Fox News and the RNC.
Really?
Then perhaps you could point to the consistent comments where I accused you of this.
:}
I'll be waiting right here troll.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
ReplyDeleteThe Republicans are attacking Medicare? I haven't heard very much about that.
Really?
Gee, its been all over the news for the past couple of months.
In fact their frantic "Tweets" on Twitter sending out marching orders to "discredit medicare" were the focus of the news just over a week ago.
Republican senators have been lamenting the same lament now from the floor of the House and Senate, i.e the universal chant, "MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
And you might check out the Facebook page of the GOP.
Pay close attention to the article entitled "MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
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To think. Wee Willy Winky here has never heard the term "MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
Even though its all we've heard from the GOP and the "TEA BAGGERS" for months now.
Note that the "concerned one" continues to use diversion, lies and obfuscation, rather than address the facts.
ReplyDeleteAfter days of trying to obscure the fact that he's selling the GOP talking point, Medicare is broken" suddenly now he pretends " gee, I haven't heard much about that".
Trying to seed the notion that the GOP has not been selling that idea. Even though we've all seen the signs of the tea baggers at the GOP "Tea Parties", which read "MEDICARE IS BROKEN".
Even though the republican senators along with their blue dog democrat cohorts, have saturated the airways with their attacks on medicare, bellowing about "massive fraud" (10 percent is now massive) and insisting Medicare won't work for national health care.
Of course the truth is, any other system would require trillions just to get off the ground.
Just to get the infrastructure in place would be a huge investment, and would make any such plan doomed to failure right out of the gate, because we simply don't have the financial resources to build such a program.
But, Medicare is in place.
Medicare is already accepted by most hospitals and health institutions.
Medicare, if expanded, could work.
Medicare could provide the American people with Universal Health Coverage.
The "single payer" system the GOP is so desperately trying to defeat.
So, since Medicare is the one infrastructure already in place that could bring the liberal goal of universal health care to the people, the GOP is out trying to discredit it.
And so is Will.
From the GOP Facebook Page.
ReplyDeleteTHE REPUBLICAN PARTY - GOP: Senate Finance Committee: Medicare is Broken
Wednesday, May 6, 2009 at 9:49am
And its not just medicare the republicans have been out attacking in force.
ReplyDeleteThey also have been out making the news circuit trying to discredit the VA. We've seen them time and time again over the past few months, attack VA medical care.
Because like Medicare, the VA is a representation of a "single payer system" that works.
So, the RNC has been out actively trying to discredit Medicare, and the VA, so as to defeat the goal of a single payer system.
In fact we all remember Tom Tancredo, walking off the set of "The Ed Show" last week, when cornered by a Vet (Markos Malitos) on his false accusations against the VA.
Of course, Will here "hasn't heard much about that".
Will needs to discredit the idea, of the GOP actively working to discredit Medicare, to draw focus off of HIS attempts, to discredit Medicare along with them.
All we've heard from the republicans for the last few months is "Medicare is Broken".
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But Will "hasn't heard much about that".
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY - GOP: Senate Finance Committee: Medicare is Broken
ReplyDeleteWednesday, May 6, 2009 at 9:49am
GOP's own Facebook page.
But Will "hasn't heard much about that".
Will when caught being disingenuous, whines, like the best right wing trolls do,
ReplyDeleteInteresting don't you think?
He has yet to admit the republicans have been trying to discredit and destroy Medicare since 1965, after they failed to defeat it.
Reagan based his "public" advocacy work for GE and the AMA on defeating Medicare.
Operation Coffeecup: Ronald Reagan’s Effort to Prevent the Enactment of Medicare
Here is is in Reagan's own voice;
Ronald Reagan - Medicare Myth Of Dictatorship
"[I]f you don't [stop Medicare] and I don't do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free."
Change Medicare to Obamacare, or Pelosi care and you have the updated quote Glen Beck, Hannity, Palin, Limbaugh are using currently,
The part Medicare part C which the republicans in congress forced on the country in 1997 to enrich the corporations is over priced, which is why the Obama administration wants to cut it back to reign in the burden to the taxpayers just for more right wing corporate welfare the republicans love so much, (Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater pentagon corporate welfare programs pushed by bush + the GOPers Like Tom Delay, Bill Frist and Billy Tauzin who just happened to land a job with big Pharma after handing them the sweetheart bill they wrote ) Hello
The republicans lead by Newt Gingrich tried but failed in the 90's to totally privatize Medicare;
In the 1990s, Newt Gingrich denounced Medicare as a Soviet-style "centralized command bureaucracy," and said that it should "wither on the vine." Gingrich, a neo-conservative ideologue who hailed France's Jacobin Revolution, detested the principle of the Medicare program, by which the national government promoted the general welfare. Medicare is the Federal program, founded in 1965, that provides financial assistance to America's 40 million-plus elderly, to pay doctor and hospital bills, and thus allows them to live longer.
The push for Part D was to further the corporate welfare program of handing tax payers money to corporations WITHOUT any safeguards for the taxpayer,
Which is why Medicare was prohibited from negotiating lower costs when they bought the highest priced drugs on the planet using taxpayers money.
* Prescription drugs for the elderly. Currently, most seniors have no coverage, under Medicare, for most prescription drugs. Under the new law, if one adds up all the premiums, deductibles, and uncovered portions of the plan, of the first $5,200 in prescription drug purchases that an elderly person would make, he or she must pay an astounding 75% out of pocket. This is a terrible deal, and a paltry drug prescription program.
But the drug companies, through tens of millions of dollars of campaign contributions, got the Republican leadership in the House to write legislation, which states that the elderly can only buy drug prescriptions through insurance companies, and that Medicare is forbidden to make the purchases in its own name for its 40 million-plus enrollees. Were Medicare to purchase in its own right, it could—like Medicaid (medical assistance to the poor) and the Veterans Administration—use the muscle of its large purchasing power, to tell the drug companies that they must mark down the price of the drugs they sell to Medicare by 10%, 25%, or 50% (and Medicare could give a subsidy on top of that). The elderly are projected to spend $1.8 trillion on drugs over the next decade, and the drug companies don't want to lose 10-50% of their mark-up on that bonanza. The drug companies stand to make tens to hundreds of billions in extra dollars because of the way the legislation was written.
But for some reason will claims he doesn't know anything about it.
Even though the truth is there for all to see, IF THEY WANT TO.
Will it seems doesn't want to know.
Oh didn't you know Clif?
ReplyDeleteWill "hasn't heard much about that".
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He just runs a political blog, and spends his time scouring through news articles and opining on them in here and on his "blog".....but.....he "hasn't heard much about that".
ReplyDeleteHere's Will.
ReplyDelete"the republicans speak poorly on medicare?
Gee.... I haven't heard much about that".
After all, as Clif points out it's only been going on for almost 50 years.
ReplyDelete:|
How could Will possibly know anything about that?
Will claims to be so knowledgeable he voted for a lunatic (Perot), but never remembers the ideas being pushed by the republicans at the time?
ReplyDeleteReagan started his political career trying to stop Medicare, and Gingrich made that part of his central tenet.
(They both wanted to privatize Social Security also.)
The famous there you go again quote from Reagan was from Jimmy carters correct statement Reagan fought against Medicare, so Reagan used a typical right wing trick to make a statement about carter NOT the facts.
Like will is doing here
But will doesn't know the history of the country he lived in it seems.
ReplyDeleteOr at least he claims he don't remember any better then Gonzo (in front of congress) or Cheney (to the FBI)do .... (when they were caught also).
How typical for will to be parroting another republican meme.
ReplyDeletePS on his waste of bandwith will claims we are;
ReplyDeleteNow it's just basically Larry and Moe....pissing on the grave of Voltron.
I didn't even know he died.
Did you?
Or is will being real disingenuous with that statement?
clif said...
ReplyDeleteWill claims to be so knowledgeable he voted for a lunatic (Perot), but never remembers the ideas being pushed by the republicans at the time?
Ironic isn't it?
clif said...
ReplyDeleteThe famous there you go again quote from Reagan was from Jimmy carters correct statement Reagan fought against Medicare, so Reagan used a typical right wing trick to make a statement about carter NOT the facts.
Like will is doing here
Couldn't have put it more succinctly if I tried.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnd lets not forget our "anonymous" blogger who likewise tries to divert focus off of Will's words being exposed as lies.
ReplyDeleteHe always seems to appear, whenever Will disappears.
Every time Will's words get dealt with, Will tries lies, distraction, whining to Lydia, then disappears.
ReplyDeleteAnd then in comes one of the anonymous trolls to help cover for him.
Every single time. For years now.
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But I'm sure its just another coinkydinky.
Its a virtual cornucopia of coinkydinks.
ReplyDeleteAnd there folks, is the intellectual prowess of the neoconservative right wing.
ReplyDeleteIn all its...er.....glory.
This one is almost as intelligent as Sarah Palin.
ReplyDeleteOr Will for that matter.
ReplyDeleteHey looky here....a three person chat room.
ReplyDeleteWas'nt the ghost person going to leave?
Here. Here's an example of the typical troll memo, when Will talks himself into a corner.
ReplyDeleteTroll Coordinator 1: "hey, looks like Will's getting his ass kicked again......".
Troll Coordinator 2: "Send in the Gimp".
When ever the debate is lost, the sock puppet routine is all they have left.
ReplyDeleteI knew that Clif didn't work. I wasn't so sure about the other contibutor. Now I am. I told you, Clif, that I didn't listen to the GOP. But, yeah, if they're drawing attention to the fact that Medicare needs to be fixed (not that I would necessarily agree with their solution, mind you) good for them. We need to seriously discuss this stuff.....You guys are funny, though. You declare yourselves the victor in these discussions. You know who else does that? Children. Children do that. LOL
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