Tuesday, January 22, 2008


"Barn burned down, but now I can see the moon."

Don't panic. Though trickle-down Reaganomics is clearly the cause of our economic woes, there is no need to panic over the so-called 'recession.' Everything that is happening is simply showing us that predatory lending and greed-based corporatism has got to end. Capitalism run amuck has run amuck. For many years I've seen this coming -- in the obsessive advertising products we don't need and creating industries out of our insecurities. The outsourcing and 'buy, buy, buy' mentality is what needs to be changed. We will create green industries at home. We will become more conscious of those in need. We all need to simplify and take care of each other. This morning I had a very calm feeling about the stock market and the sub-prime catastrophes. People who panicked, sold and lost. Those who were not ruled by false evidence appearing real (fear) were fine. I almost sold my stock, then meditated, and decided to sit still. My stock went up. Americans are powerfully resilient, industrious and innovative. Fearmongering will not take hold here. Obviously we cannot sustain a consumer society without bringing manufacturing jobs back here, but we should open our minds to embrace the train that has already left the station: globalization. There is no turning back, so we better love our neighbors as ourselves. Including some of the United Arab Emirates. Abu Dhabi is an amazing place. Do not be in fear of "the other." Anyway, when you keep your heart on the spiritual values of life —— love, charity, truth, empathy, generosity — you really know what's important. My family could live in a one bedroom shack and still be happy because we finally have our values in the right place: love, friendships, family... and dogs.

Something Good Always Comes of Bad

Even the severed branch 
grows again.

And the sunken moon

Wise men who know this

Are not troubled in adversity.


Google Commits 25M Toward Global Warming, Poverty, and Disease

Google's philanthropic arm on Thursday said it is taking aim at global warming, poverty, and pandemics with millions in cash and the Internet giant's global resources. They chose five of the world's ills and crafted core initiatives to best match Google's strengths .

In Abu Dhabi Green Visionaries Unveil Plan for World’s First Carbon-Neutral, Waste-Free, Car-Free City
Abu Dhabi, the capital of the United Arab Emirates, is awash in profitable oil reserves yet pouring billions into renewable- and sustainable-energy technologies to build the world's first zero-emission city, "a metropolis that emits not a single extra molecule of carbon dioxide -- the cause of global warming". Abu Dhabi's green ambitions extend well beyond the construction of a city for 50,000 residents using no cars and lots of solar energy...

Johnny Depp Donates $2M to Children's Hospital
Talk about generous... Johnny Depp paid a secret visit to London's Great Ormond Street Children's hospital on Sunday - and donated $2 million of his own money. GOOD NEWS NETWORK.ORG

'Black Billy Elliot' Pirouettes Past South African Prejudices
His chosen vocation ridiculed by peers and elders alike, a South African teenager remains unwavering in his ambition to become a world-class ballet dancer.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
- Martin Luther King Jr.

Here are the words of Martin Luther King, Jr. courtesy of TomCat at one of my favorite blogs POLITICS PLUS

Now it should be incandescently clear that no one who has any concern for the integrity and life of America today can ignore the present war. If America's soul becomes totally poisoned, part of the autopsy must read "Vietnam." It can never be saved so long as it destroys the deepest hopes of men the world over. So it is that those of us who are yet determined that "America will be" are led down the path of protest and dissent, working for the health of our land.

As if the weight of such a commitment to the life and health of America were not enough, another burden of responsibility was placed upon me in 1954.* And I cannot forget that the Nobel Peace Prize was also a commission, a commission to work harder than I had ever worked before for the brotherhood of man. This is a calling that takes me beyond national allegiances.

But even if it were not present, I would yet have to live with the meaning of my commitment to the ministry of Jesus Christ. To me, the relationship of this ministry to the making of peace is so obvious that I sometimes marvel at those who ask me why I am speaking against the war. Could it be that they do not know that the Good News was meant for all men-for communist and capitalist, for their children and ours, for black and for white, for revolutionary and conservative? Have they forgotten that my ministry is in obedience to the one who loved his enemies so fully that he died for them? What then can I say to the Vietcong or to Castro or to Mao as a faithful minister of this one? Can I threaten them with death or must I not share with them my life?

The FBI began wiretapping King in 1961, fearing that Communists were trying to infiltrate the Civil Rights Movement, but when no such evidence emerged, the bureau used the incidental details caught on tape over six years in attempts to force King out of the preeminent leadership position.

In 1964, King became the youngest person to receive the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to end segregation and racial discrimination through civil disobedience and other non-violent means. He was assassinated in 1968.

Remembering Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Melba Pattillo Beals

When I first met Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., in fall of 1957, I was immediately struck by the deep stillness he projected. I will never forget his posture as he entered the room, slowly, majestically, with eyes that seemed to absorb everything. I had read about this great man, seen his picture in the newspaper, and had often heard the adults talking about him.

At the time, I was 15 years old, and was one of nine African-American teenagers whose safety was in jeopardy because we were on the front lines of a civil rights struggle Dr. King had helped to start. We nine Arkansas teenagers were stuck in the civil rights struggle to integrate schools. We were caught amid a firestorm of controversy among states’ rights advocates, gun-toting segregationists, and proponents of the supremacy of federal law.

Dr. King had come to this secret meeting of NAACP leaders gathered to discuss how to keep us—the “Little Rock Nine,” as we were called—alive in the face of mounting violence.

We were in the deep throes of learning what it means to take a nonviolent stand. We had become the instruments in a legal challenge to desegregate Little Rock Central High School. This was following the United States Supreme Court decision that “separate is not equal” (Brown v. Board of Education, 1954).

After a long silence, he began to speak.

During that meeting, as Dr. King continued to look at all of us with his probing gaze, he moved slowly, as though there was no rush. When he took his seat, he continued to look around with purpose, his laser-like eyes landing on each of our faces. During these long minutes, which to me seemed to collect into an hour, he said nothing. I could even hear him breathe softly. By virtue of his presence—so still, so silent—every one of the folks in the room, some 15 adults and teenagers, also fell silent. We were compelled to give him our undivided attention. Finally, after a long silence, he began to speak.

Dr. King’s words were slow and melodic. At the beginning, I was eager to speed him up, to have him give some advice that would somehow rescue me from the hard place in which I found myself. The daily physical and verbal barrage I faced as we tried to desegregate the high school had made me more frightened than I had ever been before. I had begun to realize the truth of my situation—the possibility that I could die at the hands of white segregationists who would rather see me dead than sitting beside their children in a classroom setting they had claimed exclusively as theirs for generations.

I had never before been forced to take stock of myself in this way. I’d always known that my only salvation was my faith in God. But now, the child in me wanted human rescue. I wanted Dr. King to say the words that would ease my pain and restore my innocence. Over and over again my grandmother India, and my mother, Lois, had always told me: “God is your only protection. God is your life.”

I felt I had no right to turn back.

During the course of this conversation with Dr. King, I mostly listened, hoping that somehow he had the words that would magically free me from my commitment to claim my civil rights. Yet, as he spoke, I felt his words and his presence thrusting me deeper into my commitment. He was so solidly grounded in the belief that all men, women, and children are equal and that they must demand to be treated as equals. In his presence, I couldn’t shrink into my personal fears. He was so totally unselfish, and exhibited such absolute faith in protection for those who do God’s will, I felt I had no right to turn back—to abandon my task.

“You are not doing this for yourself,” he said, “but for generations yet unborn.” Stunned by his words, I sat back in my chair and stopped my silent whining and complaining. I began to feel embarrassed that I had given in to my selfish feelings.

I wondered about this Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., a man of medium height, chocolate complexion like mine, and an almost ordinary appearance, except for his eyes and powerful carriage. What spiritual energy propelled him always forward? What did he know about God’s will that I had not yet learned?

I have survived, against all odds.

Now, 50 years after the Brown decision, and some 47 years after that meeting—just as I do at this time every year—I think more about Dr. King, about who he really was, and what he stood for. Just as he promised, I have survived, against all odds. I know it was the act of stopping to listen to God, as Dr. King also did, that sustained me. A line from the Bible—and one that Mary Baker Eddy also quotes in Science and Health—is that we must “pray without ceasing.” I know I am here today because of unceasing prayer, and from taking time to ponder God’s will for me.

In analyzing Dr. King’s journey, I remember the truism that action speaks louder than words. I cannot forget that he took so much time to look into my eyes, and into the eyes of everyone in that room. With that pause, he confirmed my value as a human being. He had taken time to acknowledge and value every human being in his presence. It made me feel so special for that moment. I wonder what the world would be like today if each of us took time to value other human beings as he did.

Dr. King’s manner compelled us all to stop and be reminded to listen for God’s direction, just as he was doing. The strength that enabled him to take action in support of his beliefs remains a universal stream from which others can draw so that they, too, can claim what has always been rightfully theirs—respect, equality, opportunity. It is a stream available to every human being.

Dr. King’s spirit lives on.

On January 15, 2004, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., would have celebrated his 75th birthday. The human Dr. King has made his transition into a place beyond our limited understanding. And yet, more than 34 years after his departure, his prayers, thoughts, dreams, and philosophies, surround us. In this way, he is still with us. Dr. King’s spirit lives on with such vitality that it continues to churn and move and compel me to think about nonviolence, about giving personally, and achieving personal best. And above all else, about striving to be kind and loving no matter what the circumstance.

Dr. King lived a life that was a testimony to the uniqueness of God’s ideas. He grew up in a southern state where during his youth African-American people were not respected or listened to. In some cases, they were not even treated as human beings. Nevertheless, his father, the Reverend Martin Luther King, Sr., embraced the written word, first in the Bible and then in great intellectual books. This love of learning would profoundly influence the development of his son.

As a young man, Dr. King, Jr., was already winning awards for his ability to influence others. It would be the spoken word, instead of violence, that he would use in his struggle for equal rights. His gift of words, prayer, and deep insight would help him chisel a mantle of nonviolence that would be the platform on which he built a movement. And this movement would change the course of American history and elevate the quality of the lives of millions of folks like me.

Happy Birthday, Dr. King. I thank you.

(Reprinted from the January 19, 2004, issue of the Christian Science Sentinel.)


  1. Done!!!!!

    Since I got the day off I think i'm going to actually read that thread from the beginning............i started reading it backwards and still am not quite sure what the original topic was when it started.

  2. Thanks MIKE!

    You're the BEST!

  3. Lydia, thanks for an excellent remembrance of Dr. King. I based mine on my own experience with him as an anti-war activist, a side of his greatness that rarely receives mention anymore.

  4. Mike said...

    Collapse comments

    Mike said...

    Since I got the day off I think i'm going to actually read that thread from the beginning............i started reading it backwards and still am not quite sure what the original topic was when it started.

    Everyone should Mike because its important.

    Its a story that claims Mitt Romney lost his cool. Which is fine, but when I watched the video, the video did NOT show that!

    The video instead shows Romney remaining calm, cool and collected throughout the confrontation.

    The reporter obviously caught him in a lie, but Romney never once does or says anything that could even remotely be construed as "losing his cool".

    If that constitutes losing ones cool, that is, talking softly, being calm and even SMILING, then we've just set an impossible standard for us all.

    The position is untenable, and the headline is misleading.

    THinkprogress allowing it to stand without correction after I brought it to their attention, is thus intentionally being misleading for political gain, and I will not be a part of that.

  5. Now, those of you who know me, you especially Mike, KNOW I am not defending Mitt Romney.

    I am defending the TRUTH.

    And the truth is, that headline is misleading, making people think Romney lost his cool, when in fact, he did just the opposite.

    He noticeably maintained it.

  6. I brought this to Faiz, the Editor of ThinkProgress's attention, and he responded to me via email, telling me first, that he agreed with me, but "didn't see what he could do about it now".


    I asked him why if he agreed with me that the headline claims one thing and the video shows another, why he didn't just correct it, or issue a retraction.

    Instead of giving me an honest answer, he contined to ARGUE with me through email, for practically the entire night.

    I got email after email from him, until I realized that he, Faiz Shakir, was one of the bloggers I had been arguing with in the thread!


    I couldn't believe it, but his emails were identical to the argument from one of the bloggers in the thread that was arguing with me.

    And he CHANGED his story.

    First, he claimed to agree with me. But then, he suddenly switched, and tried to claim the headline "wasn't implying Romney lost his cool"!

    Go read it. It clearly IS implying Romney lost his cool.

    But he tried to claim that it wasn't.

    So I CALLED him on it, and pointed out that if it was NOT claiming Romney "Lost his cool" then it MUST be PRAISING Romney for NOT losing his cool, LOL.

    Because otherwise, why is it the TITLE of the article? And why is "lost his cool" in quotes?

    So its one or the other. Either they were PRAISING Romney, or they were MISLEADING people by IMPLYING he lost his cool.


    So, guess what his response was?

    He thought about that for a while, and then came back claiming "the article DIDN'T MEAN ANYTHING"!


    Now he was claiming the article DID NOT MEAN ANYTHING.

    It suddenly had NO POINT.


    Like they had Tourettes or something, lol.

    They just blurted it out is what Faiz wanted me to believe suddenly.

    After already admitting he agreed with me the night before, that the story headline was misleading, then the next day, he was here claiming that the story did not mean ANYTHING.


    Can you believe it?

    Well, if you can't, don't worry.

    I saved all the emails from him.

    I have the proof.

  7. See guys, at the end of the day, just because we think we're right, stooping to lying about your opponent just to win, makes us just as bad as the neocons.

    We sit here day in and day out decrying the neocons how they never admit when they're lying, or being inaccurate, so when we do it, we'd better be big enough to apologize and retract the story, correcting our errors so as to maintain our journalistic integrity.

    When TP wrote that story, they were just in error.

    When it was brought to their attention, by not just myself, but practically ever blogger came in and said they also didn't see how Romney lost his cool, then they're just purposefully misleading the public, to smear Romney about something that never happened.

    And the sad part is they didn't need to.

    They could have simply focused on his lie, instead of inventing something that never happened.

  8. This isn't about some silly debate or tit for tat bickering.

    This is about a clear and blatant lie being promulgated by a so called "progressive blog" who claims to have the higher moral ground.

    And thats the same kind of hubris we've been condeming in the right wing for the last few years.

    If we won't permit it from the right, then we certainly can't permit it from ourselves.

  9. I saw the exchange you are referring to, Romney didnt lose his cool, he kind of smirked and smiled and might have come across as somewhat condescending or a little sarcastic but in no way did he lose his cool.

  10. Well i've been claiming the Clinton;s are doing essentially the same thing by smearing obama...........and i too have been attacked or not felt as welcome in many places..............i am not on the side of a particular political party, i am on the side of right and wrong and truth.

  11. Obama, who was edged out by the ex-president's wife Hillary Rodham Clinton in the Saturday caucuses in Nevada, had harsh words for Bill Clinton, who is beloved in many Democratic circles - including among many blacks, who could be key to a win in South Carolina's weekend primary.

    The former president "has taken his advocacy on behalf of his wife to a level that I think is pretty troubling" by making statement that are not supported by facts, Obama said in an interview broadcast Monday on ABC's "Good Morning America."

    The Clinton campaign has suggested it would continue pointing out inconsistencies in Obama's record.

    Republicans are preparing for delegate-rich Florida, where the race remains wide open despite John McCain's recent wins in South Carolina and New Hampshire. A win in Florida would afford the candidate a whopping 57 delegates and a huge jolt of energy in the run-up to Feb. 5, when 22 states hold nominating contests.

    Clinton and Obama have been locked in a fierce battle for the party's nomination in a history-making campaign that pits a black man and a woman. Obama won the Jan. 3 Iowa caucuses and Clinton emerged triumphant in New Hampshire, five days later.

    Their campaign has vacillated between congenial exchanges, a dispute on race and, before Nevada's contest Saturday, charges of dirty politics. So far, no clear front-runner has emerged, making the Jan. 26 contest in South Carolina, where blacks make up about 50 percent of the Democratic electorate, particularly important going into the Feb. 5 de facto national primary.

    Trailing candidate John Edwards is looking to make the Democratic contest a three-way race with a strong showing in South Carolina, which neighbors his home state of North Carolina.

    Edwards got 4 percent of support in Nevada, compared with Clinton's 51 percent and Obama's 45 percent.

    On Sunday, Obama took to the pulpit at Martin Luther King Jr.'s Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta on the eve of the federal holiday marking the civil rights hero's birth 79 years ago. He based his speech on King's quote that "Unity is the great need of the hour."

    Obama is counting on blacks to stick with him in South Carolina to halt his losing streak in the last two state races, and his campaign has worked to overcome concerns among black voters that he would not be able to win an election in white America. He lost Nevada despite winning 83 percent of blacks, who made up 15 percent of the total vote.

    He also has been stepping up his effort to correct the misconception that he is a Muslim, now that the presidential campaign has hit the U.S. Bible Belt in the South.

    "I've been to the same church - the same Christian church - for almost 20 years," Obama said at a South Carolina rally. "I was sworn in with my hand on the family Bible. Whenever I'm in the United States Senate, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America."

    An e-mail chain has suggested he is hiding his Islamic roots. It says he was sworn into the Senate on the Quran and turns his back on the flag during the pledge.

  12. Check out the previous article , its pathetic for anyone to claim Obama is a islamofascist terrorist trying to infiltrate our governments highest office............like Christopher said it is pathetic to repeat his name over and over again trying to associate him with Osama and Saddam because his name rhymes with theirs like Karl Rove or a retarded 9 year old would do............I always liked Bill Clinton and thought very highly of him..........but Clinton just lost my vote............Volt might not be completely wrong about the Clintons they have a slimy side and Bill has diminished himself in my eyes following Hillary around like a trained attack dog.

  13. Mike said...
    I saw the exchange you are referring to, Romney didnt lose his cool, he kind of smirked and smiled and might have come across as somewhat condescending or a little sarcastic but in no way did he lose his cool.

    So go in there and tell them that.

  14. Pentagon Report On ‘Real Toll’ Of Iraq War: 1 In 5 Vets Are Affected By ‘Mild Traumatic Brain Injuries’
    On the Chris Matthews Show this morning, Time magazine Managing Editor Richard Stengel discussed a new Pentagon report that says “1 in 5 American servicemen and women who have been in Iraq are coming back with brain injuries.” Stengel called it the “real toll” of the war, adding that “the legacy of that will last all of our lifetimes and it’s incalculable.”

    In total, according to Stengel, “more than 250,000 people” are affected by “mild traumatic brain injuries” sustained in Iraq. Watch it:

  15. This is important Mike, because its not a candidate smearing another candidate, its a left wing news outlet, that has become an icon for the progressive party, lying in print to smear the opposition.

    We shouldn't tolerate that.

    We can't tolerate that.

    Otherwise what better are we than they are?

  16. Anyway thats all I've got to say about it unless someone asks.

  17. Think of the costs of this war based on lies.......1.6 TRILLION Dollars, and over 250,000 Vets ans soldiers or 20% with mild traumatic brain injury for a war based on lies and pushed by traitors.

    With this being MLK day we REALLY need to revaluate how important peace is and how much more good we can achieve by spending that money domestically to help our oen citizens and infrastructure as well as work to end our energy dependence rather than squandering it killing people on the other side of the world for a futile war based on treasonous lies.

  18. Hey, did you see they put your comment up at the top of the thread as an update or some kind of quasi disclaimer on the article like they are attempting to be more fair and balanced.

  19. Yes. That was done when I first complained.

    It was a half hearted attempt to try and appease ME, instead of the truth.

    See Mike, this isn't about ME, although they wanted to make it about that. Its about the truth.

    They wanted a comprimise, a comprimise that showed I disagreed with the article, while allowing the untrue headline, to stand.

    Well, I'll tell you what I told them. I don't comprimise when it comes to the truth. The truth is the truth. Not my opinion or their opinion, but the truth. And the truth is not they, you, me, or anyone else, can point to ONE SINGLE thing Romney said or did, that could even be remotely construed as "losing his cool".

    Faiz tried to comprimise because he wanted the misleading story to stand, to mislead people into thinking a presidential candidate lost his cool, when in fact, he did not.

    Thats a lie.

    Not a comprimise.

    A comprimise would be leaving the story up, but changing the headline to reflect what actually took place, like "Mitt gets caught lying", which Mitt did.

  20. I know you agree with me, and most reasonble people would. Sure we want to win, and sure we want Romney to lose.

    But we want to do it RIGHT.

    Not wrong.

    Thats their way.

  21. I'm hoping more people will go in and call them on this bogus story. I noticed right before you posted Mike, some guy name Pete Bogs posted say he ALSO didn't see Romney lost his cool on the video.

    Pretty much everyone going in there except for four people, all who were just there to start trouble with me, stated Romney in no way lost his cool.

    There were four people, lefty Patriot, Dim Wit (who is most likely the editor of the blog) Shayne and Fred, all of who have been following me from thread to thread in TP trying to start a debate with me because I beat them so badly on a debate about atheism, where those idiots tried to claim atheism is not a belief system, which it is.

    Even the dictionary agreed with me.

    Not one, but FIVE of them, including Websters 9th edition, called Atheism a belief system.

    Yet they continued to debate me for over a MONTH, and SIXTEEN HUNDRED COMMENTS.

    So they were just being argumentative, and the blog owner is one of them.

    When the MSM or worse, Fox noise or someone does a story on the lack of credibility in blogs as a news source, then TP will wish they had come off their pridehorse, and just admitted the story got it wrong.

  22. By the way, thanks again. I owe you a favor for posting that.

    I just wanted my parting words to represent me correctly.

    Holly, thank you too for posting it. You guys are the best.

  23. Bartlebe, i agree completely with the spirit of what you are saying...........i think our sides position NEEDS to be based on truth and facts.............however my take on it is this printing a misleading article like that in my opinion at least does absolutely NOTHING to hurt or help Mitt Romney since the vast majority of viewers and posters are left wing who would never vote for Romney anyway and most Reich Wingers would not be influenced by a dishonest title like that.....however while dishonesty like that wont serve to hurt Romney it can serve to hurt the credibility of TP and other left wing sites...........thats been my beef with Hillary all along.............we SHOULDNT try and imitate Fox News or Karl Rove we should strive to be better than them and to be the side of truth, facts and integrity, rather than lies and slimy deceptions.

  24. Exactly. It doesn't matter whether it hurts Romney or not.

    It only matters that we tell the truth.

  25. Unfortunately, being superior to the bad guys means BEING SUPERIOR TO THE BAD GUYS.

  26. We can't just claim to have the higher ground.

    We have to walk it, too.

  27. BTW Mike, don't let their comments sway you into thinking I was being unreasonable or anything.

    If you could read my comments you'd see what I actually said, but since they deleted them, all you've got is there fabrications of what took place.

  28. Anyway, Dr King rocked.

    He'd be tickled pink to see Barack Obama where he is now.

    Imagine, in a few months the United states will most likely have its first ever african american president.

    Or its first female president. Either way, its going to be an earthshaker.

  29. Mike, I just read your comment in TP.


  30. Here at LydiaCornell.com, we speak the truth.

    Anytime Lydia's found or had brought to her attention that something in an article she wrote was not factual, she IMMEDIATELY RETRACTS it!

    She's done it a couple times that I know of.

    THATS how you maintain journalistic integrity.

    Not by protecting and defending the indefensible.

  31. Foreign markets are plunging today, i predict our markets will plunge tomorrow also and the FOMC will hold an emergency session and likely cut Interest rates at least a 1/2 point then the markets will continue to panick and the curbs may be triggered.

  32. Did anyone see that Mitt Romney got over 22,000 votes in Nevada? Over 45,000 Republicans came out to caucus in Nevada


    I knew Nevada was a red state but I had no idea how red. And Mormons vote in Nevada as a tribe.

  33. TomCat has the most amazing post of Martin Luther King, Jr.

    We all need to read the whole thing.

  34. I thought Nevada was up for grabs...........looks like i was wrong.

  35. Wow, that was an amazing post Tomcat.

  36. Yea theres a lot of mormons in nevada, thats for sure. I predicted in TP a month ago that Romney would win Nevada, Wyomning, Idaho, New Mexico and probably California, and of course, Utah.

    These are all high mormon midwestern states where the mormon church carries a lot of weight.

  37. Hey Mike. I saw they jumped on you. Way to go on the response.

    That was brutal. You see now what I meant about that DimWit character. He, Dixie Blood, all of them are just 2 or 3 guys, libtrolls, who change handles and bash anyone who doesn't adopt a far left position on everything.

    Because I wouldn't join in and mock Christians, and cheer Atheism as a true science, they attacked me for months on end.

    Thats the truth.

    It seems MOCKING CHRISTIANS, is the politically correct thing to do in ThinkProgress now, at least per the larger part of the membership, and what I'm fairly sure, is the ownership.

  38. I know Lydia doesn't like the discord so I won't dwell on this, but I bet if she knew that to be "progressive" now means mocking Christianity and endorsing only atheism, she'd probably be more interested in whats happening over there to the so called "progressive party".

  39. You think its hard going into a right wing blog and telling then you're a liberal?

    Try going into ThinkProgress, and tell them you're a Christian.

  40. Look at the little hacks over in TP calling me a troll, a liar and saying to ignore me or ban me, while they havent disproved or refuted one thing i said.............thats the mark of a troll or a slimy liar who uses deception to mislead.

    They attack the messenger because they cant defeat the message...........hoover did that with MLK, Rove, Cheney and Bush did that to anyone who questioned or opposed their lies and slimy trolls like Rusty, TT and Moo Moo did that in here.

  41. Damn Mike. They really jumped on you.

    You write nothing like me (cept we both like to say inbred lol) yet they're claiming you're a troll just because you side with me.

    Thats too sad. It shows that there is an "element", and believe me, its only an element, of the left that really isn't that much different from the right.

    Kind of like how the Clinton camp likes to play it, huh?

  42. Mike said...

    They attack the messenger because they cant defeat the message...........


    And you hit the nail on the head when you pointed out correctly to them that while they were busy attacking and insulting you, they offered NOTHING in a way of refuting anything you said.

    Because they can't.

    Because there isn't anything to say to refute it.

  43. These are the same guys Mike who attacked me for daring to defend people of faith from their foul attacks and slander, trying to claim that ALL people who believe in God were fools.

    I dared to stand up to them about that 3 months ago, and they've followed me ever since, attacking anything I say.

  44. You're on firm ground, and these guys are on sandy shoals.

    And when someone like Fox news, or Bill Oreilly gets ahold of a story like that, where they attack Mitt for something he clearly did not do, its just going to make it that much harder for the rest of the left wing blogs to be taken seriously.

    TP is one of the biggest liberal blogs out there, and doing a false story just gives Fox noise, and Oreilly, and Coulter types, the ammo they need to shoot down left wing blogs as being partisan too.

  45. You know, the funny thing is, I went into that thread the other night to jump on Romney about losing his cool.

    I wasn't even going to WATCH the video.

    Do you know how many times I've done that? A LOT.

    See, last night, I was getting ready to bash Romney for losing his cool, when I stopped and decided to look at the video first.

    Thats when I realized there was NOTHING there. I watched it again and again. In fact I watched it FOUR times before finally being forced to admit that there was NOTHING there about him losing his cool.

    He was LYING sure. He's ALWAYS lying.

    And if they wanted to make the story about that, fine. Thats what it SHOULD have been about.

    But they didn't need to make sh$t up.

  46. That really made me think about how many times I've gone into a thread over there at TP, and started chiming in with the crowd abotu some perceived offense caught on video, when in fact, I had never watched the videos.

    Because I just TRUSTED the "good guys" to tell the truth.


    And thats the same thing that got the neocons in trouble I think.

  47. lydia
    I spent most of the day commenting on posts about MLK and the conclusion I came to was two fold. You could take MLK's speeches and replace Iraq with Vietnam and nothing has changed. Secondly it is much worse today in America and around the world and things are exponentially worse in every instance. I see more racism today than I have ever seen in my white boy life.

  48. Patriot, i agree with you about substituting iraq for Vietnam..........I thought the same thing.

  49. Lydia--
    I saw that speech over at TomCat's place, it was dynamic. I posted King's 'The time has come....' sermon on my site. You will NEVER hear this on the MSM.


  50. Average Patriot and Brother Tim -- you're right, substitute "Iraq" for "Vietnam" in the excerpt I just posted on the blog -- from TomCat's blog.

    Bart -- I will go over to TP when I have time and check out the atheist conversation. Have not had time to do that.

  51. Anyone watching the Democratic debate.............All 3 sound great when they focus on the issues rather than smearing or sniping at each other..............From what i've seen this has been Hillary Clinton's best debate.........course Wolf Blitzer is still favoring her and running interference when Edwards or Obama make a point at her expense..........but she clearly has made some excellent points today.

  52. You guys are right. Doctor Kings speech could be used just as easily today for Iraq. Just change the players names and places and walla.

    Its like history repeating itself almost.

    Or us repeating the mistakes of history.

  53. Lydia Cornell said...

    Bart -- I will go over to TP when I have time and check out the atheist conversation. Have not had time to do that.

    Its too late to check out the "conversation".

    The editor of TP wiped out every comment I ever made on TP with the push of one button. I asked him to cancel my account, but I didn't tell him to wipe it out He knew that, because he was arguing with me about something, so he just wiped out my account, and every word I ever said on TP just disappeared.

    It wss because he was embarrassd, because he knew I was getting wise to him. He was one of the bloggers I think that I was arguing with, incognito.

    Anyway you can go see there comments though. They gleefully mock and insult anyone daring to voice a religious opinion, and if you dare to defend anything religious then they gang up on you, and try to drive you out.

  54. Mike said...
    Anyone watching the Democratic debate.............All 3 sound great when they focus on the issues rather than smearing or sniping at each other..............From what i've seen this has been Hillary Clinton's best debate.........course Wolf Blitzer is still favoring her and running interference when Edwards or Obama make a point at her expense..........but she clearly has made some excellent points today.

    Clearly we're in good shape should either of them win, compared to the last 7 years. Compared to Bush, any one of them look like Solomon.

  55. What I'm worried about this time is a republican "spoiler".

    And it looks like they're grooming Bloomberg for that role.

    If Bloomberg enters the race, he could possibly divide the democratic party, and pull away a lot of independent voters that we're hoping for.

    If that happens, it could actually trigger a republican win for someone like McCain, who will take the bulk of the republican votes and moderate republican votes giving him a larger percentage of the voter block than the democratic candidate.

    Now, understand I think this is unlikely, because I think Obama will get the nod and if Obama gets the nod he's going to pull a lot of independent voters his way.

    If Hilary or Edwards gets it though, then those independents could go for Bloomberg.

  56. If Obama gets the nod, the neocons will think they're in that movie, "Cloverfield".

  57. lol, they think you're me Mike.

    Thats pretty funny, because so far, EVERYONE who has sided with me they claim is actually me pretending to be someone else.

    Which is hilarious since I have only had one logon on TP since they moved to the new registration system. Only ONE.

    None of those people were me. You're not me. But these bozos think you are.

    Which shows their limited judgement capabilities.

  58. I think your right that one of those clowns is a moderator, two of my comments got nuked over there.

  59. You know what I think it shows........I think it is a prime example of how the guilty are ever distrustful............it appears there are 5 or six of those clowns i'll bet its really more like 2 or 3......they are like Rusty pathetically trying to make their shrieking voices louder and their pathetic lies have more weight than they should by creating multiple alias's.

  60. That was an EXCELLENT article that Tomcat posted.......this portion of it really caught my attention as I think it is not only still applicable today but timeless.........here is that quote from Tomcat's MLK post.

    "There is at the outset a very obvious and almost facile connection between the war in Vietnam and the struggle I and others have been waging in America. A few years ago there was a shining moment in that struggle. It seemed as if there was a real promise of hope for the poor, both black and white, through the poverty program. There were experiments, hopes, new beginnings. Then came the buildup in Vietnam, and I watched this program broken and eviscerated as if it were some idle political plaything of a society gone mad on war. And I knew that America would never invest the necessary funds or energies in rehabilitation of its poor so long as adventures like Vietnam continued to draw men and skills and money like some demonic, destructive suction tube. So I was increasingly compelled to see the war as an enemy of the poor and to attack it as such.

    Perhaps a more tragic recognition of reality took place when it became clear to me that the war was doing far more than devastating the hopes of the poor at home. It was sending their sons and their brothers and their husbands to fight and to die in extraordinarily high proportions relative to the rest of the population."

  61. You could take MLK's speeches and replace Iraq with Vietnam and nothing has changed.

    Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam.

  62. Mike said...
    I think your right that one of those clowns is a moderator, two of my comments got nuked over there.

    Really? They're deleting your comments? Thats just nuts.

    You're right though that does demonstrate what I was saying, only its not a moderator. Its the editor in chief.

    Thats whats so bizzare.

  63. Mike said...

    ............it appears there are 5 or six of those clowns i'll bet its really more like 2 or 3....

    You're right again.

    It IS only 2 or 3 guys, changing handles. For instance, Dixie Blood is also "Dbadass", and Dim Wit is also Fred.

    I've established that much so far. I'm also pretty sure Dim Wit is the editor, and the other guy, dbadass is a guy named Matt Corely that is also on the head staff. I"m not positive of course, thats just my opinon, but I'm fairly confident I'm not far off the money.

    And deleting your posts really reinforces the likelyhood I'm right. Not many people over there have that power.

  64. If I'm right though, that would be a shocker. Very unprofessional, and very damaging to thier blogs future credibility. Not just in posting the lying story, but harrassing their own blog members under psudeo handles.

    That would be a story in and of itself.

  65. Jim Cramer lets the cat out of the bag;

    Is This The Big One?

    By Mike Whitney

    On Monday, fears of a US recession spilled over into Asian markets sending stocks tumbling. Indexes were hammered across the board in what turned out to be the worst day of trading since 2001. In India, the Bombay Sensitive Index plunged 1408 points, to 17,605. In China, the Shanghai Composite dropped 266 points (or 5.5%) to 23,818, while in Japan, the Nikkei fell 535 points, to 13,325 points. The bloodletting stretched across the continent and into Europe where shares nosedived by more than 4% by mid-morning “putting them on track for their biggest one-day fall in more than four and a half years.”

    The huge sell-off is a sign that global investors do not believe that the Fed's rate cuts or President Bush's $150 billion “stimulus package” can revive the flagging economy or breathe new life into the over-extended US consumer. After Monday's sharp downturn, the prospects for averting a deep and protracted recession are slim to none.

    Economics Professor Nouriel Roubini summed it up like this nearly a month ago:

    “The United States has now effectively entered into a serious and painful recession. The debate is not anymore on whether the economy will experience a soft landing or a hard landing; it is rather on how hard the hard landing recession will be. The factors that make the recession inevitable include the nation's worst-ever housing recession, which is still getting worse; a severe liquidity and credit crunch in financial markets that is getting worse than when it started last summer; high oil and gasoline prices; falling capital spending by the corporate sector; a slackening labor market where few jobs are being created and the unemployment rate is sharply up; and shopped-out, savings-less and debt-burdened American consumers who — thanks to falling home prices — can no longer use their homes as ATM machines to allow them to spend more than their income. As private consumption in the US is over 70% of GDP the US consumer now retrenching and cutting spending ensures that a recession is now underway.

    On top of this recession there are now serious risks of a systemic financial crisis in the US as the financial losses are spreading from subprime to near prime and prime mortgages, consumer debt (credit cards, auto loans, student loans), commercial real estate loans, leveraged loans and postponed/restructured/canceled LBO and, soon enough, sharply rising default rates on corporate bonds that will lead to a second round of large losses in credit default swaps. The total of all of these financial losses could be above $1 trillion thus triggering a massive credit crunch and a systemic financial sector crisis.” ( Nouriel Roubini Global EconoMonitor)

    Decades of stagnant wages have left the American worker hamstrung and unable to continue to account for 25% of global consumption. Tightening credit and lack of personal savings have only added to his problems. The American consumer is tapped-out. That means that aggregate demand will fall dramatically across the world triggering increases in unemployment, decreases in capital expansion, and widespread slowdown in business activity. These are the beginnings of a deflationary spiral that will wipe out trillions of dollars of market capitalization in the real estate, equities and bonds markets. Even gold and oil will retreat significantly. (as we saw in Monday's results)

    The present crisis is not the result of normal market forces, but price fixing at the Federal Reserve and the financial engineering of the main investment banks. If there had been sufficient regulation of the activities of the Central Bank, so that interest rates had not been kept below the rate of inflation for over 31 months straight (under Greenspan) than the trillions of dollars in low-interest credit would not have flooded the real estate market, igniting a frenzy of speculative home-buying and creating the biggest housing bubble in US history. Despite his feeble excuses, Greenspan's role in destroying the US economy is no longer in doubt. Even the far-right Op-ed page of the Wall Street Journal conceded Greenspan's culpability in Saturday's edition. Here's what they said:

    “Amid the daily market turmoil, and to help prevent a crash, it helps to step back and remember how we got here. With the benefit of hindsight, everyone can see that the U.S. economy built up an enormous credit bubble that has now popped. Our own view -- which we warned about going back to 2003 -- is that this bubble was created principally by a Federal Reserve that kept real interest rates too low for too long. In doing so the Fed created a subsidy for debt and a commodity price spike.”

    Greenspan's low interest rates stimulated risky speculation that resulted in humongous equity bubbles. That much is certain. The Fed's “cheap money” policy generated artificial demand for housing which drove prices to unsustainable levels. Now we can expect to see a real estate crash unlike anything this country has experienced since the 1930s. That is the unavoidable outcome of Greenspan's "low interest" fake prosperity.

    Greenspan is not the only one responsible for the present calamity. The financial markets have been reconfigured in a way that accommodates all manner of corruption. The new model, “structured finance”, allows worthless assets to be disguised by fraudulent ratings and sold to unsuspecting investors. At one time, this assertion might have been dismissed as the ravings of a conspiracy nut. But now we can find the similar accusations in the Wall Street Journal and on CNBC.

    Here's the Wall Street Journal explaining how the $800 billion US current account deficit created a circular loop which channeled that money back to the U.S.:

    "That capital flow and debt subsidy, in turn, became fuel for smart people in mortgage companies, investment banks and elsewhere to exploit. In a sense they created a new financial system -- subprime loans, SIVs, CDOs, etc. -- that is enormously efficient and brought capital to new places. But thanks to low interest rates and human enthusiasm, this debt spree also got carried away. ”

    "Human enthusiasm”? Is that a euphemism for insatiable greed?

    The Wall Street Journal admits that a new “structured debt” market was created to package dubious subprime liabilities (from “no doc”, no collateral , “bad credit” loan applicants) and sell them to hedge funds, insurance companies and foreign banks as if they were precious jewels. The WSJ avers that this is the way that “smart people” “exploit” the opportunities from lavish “capital flows”.

    But was it “smart” or criminal?

    Fortunately, that question was answered this week in an extraordinary outburst on cable TV by market-insider and equities guru, Jim Cramer. In Cramer's latest explosion, he details his own involvement in creating and selling “structured products” which had never been stress-tested in a slumping market. No one knew how badly they would perform. Cramer admits that the motivation behind peddling this junk to gullible investors was simply greed. Here's his statement:


    (We used to say) “The commissions on structured products are so huge let's JAM IT.” (note “jam it” means foist it on the customer) It's all about the 'commish'. The commission on structured product is GIGANTIC. I could make a fortune 'JAMMING THAT CRUMMY PAPER' but I had a degree of conscience---what a shocker!--We used to regulate people but they decided during the Reagan revolution that that was bad. So we don't regulate anyone anymore. But listen the commission in structured product is so gigantic. (pause) First of all the customer has no idea what the product really is because it is invented. Second, you assume the customer is really stupid; like we used to say about the German bankers, 'The German banks are just Bozos. Throw them anything.' Or the Australians 'M O R O N S' Or the Florida Fund (ha ha ) “They're so stupid let's give them Triple B (junk grade) Then we'd just laugh and laugh at the customers and Jam them with the commission...That's what happened; that's what happened....Remember, this is about commissions, about how much money you can make by jamming stupid customers. I've seen it all my life; you jam stupid customers.” See the whole damning confession on: http://www.cnbc.com/id/22706231

    Trillions of dollars in structured investments (CDOs, MBSs, an ASCP) have now clogged up the global economic system and are dragging the world headlong into recession/depression. Cramer's confession is a candid admission of criminal intent to defraud the public by selling products which people--within the financial industry---KNEW were falsely represented by their ratings. They sold them simply to fatten their own paychecks and because there is no longer any regulatory agency within the US government that curtails ilicit activity.


    As the stock market continues its inexorable downward plunge, foreign central banks and investors need to reevaluate the present situation and aggressively pursue legal alternatives. They should initiate a boycott of all US financial products until an appropriate settlement for the hundreds of billions in losses due to the “structured finance” swindle can be negotiated. That is the best way that they can serve their own national interests and those of their people.

    Deregulation has annihilated the credibility of US markets. There is no oversight; it's the Wild West. The assets are falsely represented, the ratings are meaningless, and there's a clear intention to deceive. That means that the stewardship of the global economic system is no longer in good hands. There needs to be a fundamental change. As the “nightmare scenario” of global recession continues to unfold; we need new leaders in Europe and Asia to step up and fill the void.

    In essence Cramer is saying the reichwing beginning with Reagan wanted deregulation so they could lie to people, cheat people, and steal from the American people with out the government to stop them.

    It was all about making sure the government couldn't protect the people from specialists who could both set them up as marks for their fraud, and be protected because no body was allowed to make them tell the truth.

    Greed over America was all Reagan wanted,

    Greed is destroying this country.

    It probably has undercut our industrial base and financial foundations so we will go the way of the British empire, into a second place at bets on the world's stage.

    Greed and the next quarters profits mean MORE to these criminals then the good of the entire nation, and they seem willing to destroy America for a few dollars more.

    When we discussed this in 2006 Voltron, freedom fan, tallltexan and crusty the clown laughed, said all was fine, and we just hatyeed America, but we tried to warn them things were MUCH worse then they were willing to admit, and tell then things would get bad in late 2007 and 2008, well we are here and what we warned them about

    IS HAPPENING ........

    as Worfeus used to say;


    OH BTW the Markets are falling in Asia again, and the US markets futures are down %5 at this time,

    But according to crusty the clown, voltron, tallltexan, freedom fan and reichwingers the economy is just fine, no matter what the numbers or your lying eyes tell you otherwise.

  66. Bart, late to the game;

    here was what I posted at TP;

    It is very simple, if the truth means anything then;

    If it was wrong when Lee Atwater and Karl Rove campaigned dishonestly, and had others telling untruths or twisting talking points and spin for them;

    it is wrong when the we do it.

    If we as progressives want to be “better” then they were, we HAVE to act like it.

  67. Bolton: US Iran intelligence has become politicized


    This clown finally "figgered" that out?

    After the lies about WMD's and Saddam and Al Qaeda,

    He just gets it because the NIE doesn't say what HE wants it to say?

    No wonder the senate couldn't approve his nomination to embarrass the USA at the UN.

  68. Bolton's a clown, the funny thing is even he is enbarrassed and resents being called a Neo Con.

  69. Mike the markets overseas are going down again today;

    Nikkei ..... -752.89

    H Seng .... -2033.07

    from reuters

  70. The yen against the dollar at 105.99, right now according to Bloomberg.

    5 TRILLION dollars have been lost from stock markets since the new year.

  71. Like i said earlier Bernanke calls an emergency FOMC session and cuts interest rates 1/2-3/4 points and the market ignores him and the panic selling triggers the curbs............i think its look out below time, i think the Dow could be in the 6000-8000 range in the next year.

  72. DOW futures say a 500 point drop at the open.

    Ten year note at 3.53% (which suggests a rather quick drop in the fed rate at least 50 basis points.)

    But according to crusty and freedom fan the economy is just fine.

  73. Mike with the dow at a little over 12,000(and a 500 point drop at the open)

    they are saying 11,000 is the next resistance level,

    rather fast fall from over 13,000 last week eh?

  74. and 14,000 about 2 1/2 months ago,

  75. Lydia : thank you for the great post about MLK and What matters...I think sadly that sometimes we all lose Sight of WHO and What he was....it is up to all of us to remember him, in our words and our actions...and we have every right to relook at THE Dream and try to find OUR way there as a Nation.....MLK would be so dissappointed at HOW fractured we are as a Country...and how broken we are ......he would be glad that many are relooking and talking about What he taught us...

    Tomcat: thank you for blogging on DrKing...and thank you for remembering he was also fighting against the War in a Way that mattered....

    about the stock market....sadly I think the World Markets are worried and KNOW they can not bail out the trouble that is here...and they are tired of Bailing out Bush, esp when he just spent last week sword dancing and feasting with the Arabian countries- that was diplomatically a disaster....and yes, I fear it effects OUR world image...( esp the Arms deal he contrived....)

  76. Why do all reichwingers claim Clinton "gutted" the military and the chimperor restored it;

    the FACTS are;

    DoD data;

    The end of Clinton administration saw 1,372,900 active duty military personnel on 30 June, 2000, compared to 1,372,905 on 30 June, 2007?

    5 more people in uniform is restoring the military?

    and NOBODY recalls;

    Colin Powell, as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs called for massive reductions after the cold war.

    General Powell's Base force envisioned a military about 75 percent of the size and cost of the military that existed when he took office. According to the timetable Powell presented to his superiors, the Pentagon would reduce its force structure and budget by five percent a year each year in real terms between 1990 and 1995. By 1995, Powell's plan would have reduced the Total Force of uniformed military personnel from 3.3 million (2.1 million active and 1.2 million guard and reserve) to 2.6 million (1.6 million active and 0.9 million guard and reserve). The Base Force reductions in personnel would result in parallel cuts in the number of ground divisions, ships and tactical air wings. However the essentials of the U.S. military would remain the same only somewhat smaller, i.e. the forces would be organized and operated in the same way.

    George H W Bush agreed;

    The peace dividend is a political slogan popularized by US President George H.W. Bush and UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in the early 1990s, purporting to describe the economic benefit of a decrease in defense spending. It is used primarily in discussions relating to the guns versus butter theory. The term was frequently used at the end of the Cold War, when many Western nations significantly cut military spending.

    Of course NO reichwinger EVER heard of the BRAC commissions;

    You know the ones that started in 1988, one none other then Fred Thompson testified before the DEFENSE MISSIONS hearing on JUNE 8, 1988;

    While Reagan was still president;

    In 1988 the Secretary of Defense recognized the requirement to close excess bases to save money and therefore chartered the Commission on Base Realignment and Closure in 1988 to recommend military bases within the United States for realignment and closure.

    And the BRAC Commissions also had troop levels along with base closures in them;

    DoD Personnel
    (End Strength in thousands)
    FY 92 FY 95 FY 97
    ~~ ~
    Army 610 538 522
    Navy 542 490 489
    Marine Corps 185 170 159
    Air Force 470 409 400
    TOTAL 1,807 1,607 1,570
    RESERVES 1,114 911 907
    CIVILIANS 1,006 904 884

    From the BRAC which contains the following historical account;

    On November 5, 1990, President George Bush signed Public Law 101-5 10, which established the Defense Base Closure and Realignment Commission “to provide a fair process that will result in the timely closure and realignment of
    military installations inside the United States.” Public Law 101-510 (Title XXIX, as amended) required the Secretary of Defense to submit a list of proposed military base closures and realignments to the Commission by March 15, 1993 (see Appendix A). The statute also
    required the Secretary of Defense to base all recommendations on a force-structure plan submitted to Congress with the Department’s
    FY 1994 budget request and on selection criteria developed by the Secretary of Defense and
    approved by Congress.

    So they were asking to CUT the military long before Bill Clinton became president.

    And BTW even Rumsfeld was for the BRAC before he was against it;

    Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Army Gen. Henry H. Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the House Armed Services Committee in July 2001 that the Pentagon maintained 25 percent more facilities than it needs, even after four rounds of base closings in the 1990s.

    Why do the reichwingers LIE about this all the time,

    George W Bush did in 2000 when he ran for president, and it was HIS father and Reagan who started this.

    Why did BUSH lie?

  77. One small correction to give George bush his due,

    I stated Bush added 5 people to the military, and that is not totally correct, he actually added 5 plus 3930 replacements for the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines he MURDERED with his illegal immoral war.

  78. Lydia, Mike, Brother and E4e, thank you so much for the kind words. I had hoped that people would read that post and translate it into it's applicability for today. I'm glad that many did.

  79. I've said from the beginning that you guys don't have much to worry about concerning McCain.

    I really don't think he'll get the Republican nomination, but IF he does, you'll see all the true conservatives voting independent this time around.

    I know I'd NEVER vote for him.

  80. The Dow Jones Industrial Average opened down more than 440 points, more than 3.5 percent lower than Friday’s close. One of the worst openings on record.

    Investors around the world signaled a lack in confidence in President Bush’s ability to pull the American economy away from recession. The expectation is if America’s economy falters and lurches into a recession, the effects will be felt around the globe.

    Isn’t it good to know the adults are in charge?

  81. I see you dived into the lie thread too over there Clif.

    I'm impressed. Your descriptions of Atwater and the standard being the same for all was fanatastic.

    Clearly those clowns and their "our lies our superior to their lies" doctrine are sorely outmatched with you and Mike both laying it out for them.

  82. Christopher said...
    The Dow Jones Industrial Average opened down more than 440 points, more than 3.5 percent lower than Friday’s close. One of the worst openings on record.

    Screw a recession. At this point I'm just praying he doesn't drive us into a DEPRESSION.

    The stock market has is TANKING. It can't just keep falling like this. Bush is an IDIOT.

    His plan is to do what he did when Clinton gave him 1.7 trillion dollar surplus.

    Divide it up and hand it out in tiny, insignificant amounts until its all gone.

  83. Bartlebee,

    Bush's solution (like all Repug presidents) is to cut taxes on the wealthy.

    You see, then the folks with the cash can acquire even larger stock holding and a transfer of wealth will take place that will rival the transfer of wealth that took place when that creep, Ronald Reagan, was loitering around the Oval Office.

    If the people in the middle and at bottom get screwed, who cares? There are always $8.00 an hour jobs at WalMart for them.

  84. It is almost funny,

    the FED cuts 3/4 of a point and the big talking heads were jaw boning the sheeple to "hang tough", and look for "buying opportunities".

    But every time a "professional trader", or fund manager gets on the shows, they look at Cramer like he is NUTS, and say STAY on the sidelines we are headed lower, (much lower).

    Jim Cramer tried three times to get a women to say she would buy anything, and she refused to take his dishonest bait.

    It is interesting both Jim Cramer and Larry Kudlow were called in very early to get their minions to calm down and stay to lose more money while the corporate holders (Like GE CNBC's owner)find new ways to make money off the sheeple.

  85. Check out the previous article , its pathetic for anyone to claim Obama is a islamofascist terrorist trying to infiltrate our governments highest office....

    There is no such thing as a "islamofascist."

    Fascism is a Christian ideology, like it or hate it. The Church is one of Fascism's main planks.

  86. Well, I was close Bernanke cut 3/4 of a point BEFORE the curbs were triggered and it helped a little........but once people realize exactly how serious things have to be for Bernanke to cut 3/4 of a point between meetings or for the Chimp to essentially concede on his tax cuts for the wealthy for stimilus for the working class that he KNOWS is more effective shows how worried he actually is about being the next Hoover and being associated with being the President that caused another Great Depression..........Bush is SO scared he essentially admitted that tax cuts for the wealthy are BS and do nothinng for the economy

  87. Jolly Roger said...
    Check out the previous article , its pathetic for anyone to claim Obama is a islamofascist terrorist trying to infiltrate our governments highest office....

    There is no such thing as a "islamofascist."

    Fascism is a Christian ideology, like it or hate it. The Church is one of Fascism's main planks."

    I know that, and I know you know that...........but many of the sheeple are lapping up that BS!

  88. BTW voltron, your opinion of who to vote for in the party of criminally organized corruption, pedophile protection and faux hypocritical family values is quite interesting.

    Willard M Romney has a son he denies, and has yet to acknowledge on the campaign trail.

    Maybe it is because that son of OUT of WEDLOCK, and his current wife despises that human being.

    Maybe his Mormon wife hates his Jewish son?

    Maybe it is because that son won't toe the flip flop Romney family values lifestyle.

    But then again you have a "son" you claim is yours, and even try to tell all of us takes three showers a day.

    So I guess Willard is the best candidate you can find who LIES about his family.

    Hint dolty, the dog Willard tortured on the top of his car in that trip to Michigan, supposedly was the "hidden son's". So maybe Willard didn't tell the whole truth about torturing that dog, like he usually does NOT tell the truth.

    Lobbyists in his campaign anyone ....

    Or can he just stand there and lie, change facts as he speaks and tell the MSM to STFU and be polite, because calling that lying hypocrite on his crap violates Willard's world view, like it does when we call you on your crap son.

  89. Jolly Roger said...

    There is no such thing as a "islamofascist."

    Fascism is a Christian ideology, like it or hate it. The Church is one of Fascism's main planks.

    I must respectfully disagree. Islam is just as heirarchal and domineering in the lives of its followers, if not more so, than the Christian religions.

    I think the real answer here is ANY religion, belief system or ideology when ABUSED, can become facist, and corrupt.

  90. Oh GOODY,

    Georgie's hand holding men friends are soon to join the 20th century, hopefully they won't have to go thru "prohibition" like we did, ... er ... they already are, sorry.

    I wonder if "the hucklebee" likes the way the Saudi women submit to their husbands so much, since he thinks American women should submit to their husbands.

    Is James Dobson in a rage when they modernize their religious views just to make it to 20th cen standards?

  91. On Jan. 22, 1973, the Supreme Court handed down its Roe vs. Wade decision, which legalized abortion. ...

    and the wing nuts heads exploded, because all that cannon fodder wasn't going to be there.

  92. BARTLEBEE said...
    Jolly Roger said...

    There is no such thing as a "islamofascist."

    Fascism is a Christian ideology, like it or hate it. The Church is one of Fascism's main planks.

    I must respectfully disagree. Islam is just as heirarchal and domineering in the lives of its followers, if not more so, than the Christian religions.

    I think the real answer here is ANY religion, belief system or ideology when ABUSED, can become facist, and corrupt."

    Bartlebe, I believe he is refering to how the West is corporatized as the corporate/government link is a key element of fascism while relion is more what it is cloaked in its more on the peripheral...........clearly islam is not a corporate contro;;ed culture like Germany was or like we are becoming..............aslthough you are correct that Islam can be just as authoritarian and repressive if not more so than other religions and it is just as susceptible to abuse albeit a slightly different type of abuse.

    Clearly the Terrm Islamofascism is a bogus retarded term dreamed up by a liar to deflect and project the Reich Wing's fascism onto a common bogey man.

  93. Mike said...

    clearly islam is not a corporate contro;;ed culture like Germany was or like we are becoming.....

    Not to be disagreeable but tell that to the folks living in Saudi Arabia, or Dubai, or any of the Arab Emirates.

  94. But I do agree with you in principle however.

    The term was created to make Americans hate Arabs.

    No doubt about that.

  95. I just am more careful these days when condeming any religion or theologies in general terms, but I understand what you guys are saying and you're right. The term is a misnomer designed to get us on board with hating arabs.

    By the way, I was glad you brought up atheism to the little dimwit over there. Too funny.

    Now he sees theres more than ONE liberal who isn't willing to mock people of faith.

  96. I've even considered writing a blog here on atheism, the "psuedo science".

    Because ultimately thats what it is.

    It claims to follow science, yet when you ask them to prove their main contention, that is, that God does not exist, they admit that they cannot.

    And if they can't prove their main contention, then they are relegated to the realms of a belief system just like everything else that cannot be proven.

    The only difference between them and the people of faith, is people of faith ADMIT theirs is a belief system.

    Atheists seem to have a hard time doing that.

  97. CNBC talking head asks Larry reagan was a god Kudlow, how to resolve the current problems,

    Sur-prise, sur-prise, sur-prise, his answer;

    cut taxes, (primarily on the rich and especially on corporations)

    He also LIES and says tax cuts 'create revenue". (didn't he hear ole' Ben Berneke discredit that reichwing lie before congress?), or maybe he know the reichwingers WANT to believe it so much they'll accept Larry Kudlow's lie before the facts.

    Wanna really resolve the problem Mr Kudlow, GO BACK and undo the damage the reichwing has done to this country and it's economy since Reagan began in 1981.

    Oh right your one of the head cheerleaders for more of that type of economic damage to the fabric of this country.

    Sorry I don't drink the neo-con reichwing koolaid, and didn't take math classes from KKKArl rove, so I can't "see" your dishonest distorted points and the lie they are based on.

    All you have now is more discredited reichwing spin to throw out while a lot of people are suffering BECAUSE of the very policies you advocate.

    Larry Kudlow, channeling the ghost of Andrew Mellon who pushed tax cuts, especially for the rich right up to the 1929 crash, then couldn't do much once his policies lead directly to the great depression since he created system for the dramatic wealth accumulation, and loss of monetary flow and available credit by the poor and middle class to keep the economy working.

    Just like Reagan Bush 41 and bush 43 have done.

    The "roaring twenties" was an era when our country prospered tremendously. The nation's total realized income rose from $74.3 billion in 1923 to $89 billion in 1929. However, the rewards of the "Coolidge Prosperity" of the 1920's were not shared evenly among all Americans. According to a study done by the Brookings Institute, in 1929 the top 0.1% of Americans had a combined income equal to the bottom 42%. That same top 0.1% of Americans in 1929 controlled 34% of all savings, while 80% of Americans had no savings at all. Automotive industry mogul Henry Ford provides a striking example of the unequal distribution of wealth between the rich and the middle-class. Henry Ford reported a personal income of $14 million in the same year that the average personal income was $750. By present day standards, where the average yearly income in the U.S. is around $18,500, Mr. Ford would be earning over $345 million a year! This maldistribution of income between the rich and the middle class grew throughout the 1920's. While the disposable income per capita rose 9% from 1920 to 1929, those with income within the top 1% enjoyed a stupendous 75% increase in per capita disposable income.

    A major reason for this large and growing gap between the rich and the working-class people was the increased manufacturing output throughout this period. From 1923-1929 the average output per worker increased 32% in manufacturing. During that same period of time average wages for manufacturing jobs increased only 8%. Thus wages increased at a rate one fourth as fast as productivity increased. As production costs fell quickly, wages rose slowly, and prices remained constant, the bulk benefit of the increased productivity went into corporate profits. In fact, from 1923-1929 corporate profits rose 62% and dividends rose 65%.

    The federal government also contributed to the growing gap between the rich and middle-class. Calvin Coolidge's administration (and the conservative-controlled government) favored business, and as a result the wealthy who invested in these businesses. An example of legislation to this purpose is the Revenue Act of 1926, signed by President Coolidge on February 26, 1926, which reduced federal income and inheritance taxes dramatically.

    So the Reagan-Bush style policies lead to economic collapse, and FDR's lead to the greatest expansion of any middle class anywhere in the history of the planet.

    Tell me again why we listen to people who create chaos just to make money for the rich?

  98. The fact is evolution, for some reason has chosen to instill a natural abilty in us all to believe in something larger than ourselves, and it has not grown weaker over time, but stronger.

    Of course natural selection may have strenghtened that trait due to the fact that disbelievers for a few thousand years in most cultures were usually killed, but still, we should be seeing a trend away from it then over the last few hundred years, when in fact, we are not.

    Does that mean there is a god? No.

    But it doesn't mean there isn't one either.

  99. Can you believe that for two months they crucified me over there in TP for saying stuff like that Mike?

    The "regulars" over at TP rule that place now, and if they've been steadily driving off all liberal and progressive Christians, Jews, etc.

    As soon as anything religious hits the board, out comes the slander and insults.

    They mock the people of faith in the thread, calling their belief systems "FAIRY TALES" and their gods "FLYING SPAGETTI MONSTERS".

    They call them primitive, superstitous, and everything else designed to belittle someone who choses to believe in God.

    While I fully respect an individuals right to NOT believe in a god or gods, and also his right to complain and speak out when pious hypocrisy is evident.

    But to gleefully mock them, particularly Christians, which is their favorite form of attack, is untenable.

  100. BTW Mike the "dead cat" has bounced and is comin' back down to earth today .....

  101. Ten year rate is 3.53%,

    Maybe the "re-fies" won't be as large as some think, because the economy is a crashing and interest rates are tanking because of that.

    Silver lining if you still have a job when you need to "re-fi".

  102. Its the neocons that got us here.

    The Christian Conservatives constantly showcasing their so called faith, and then turning around and voting to slaughter hundreds of thousands of Arabs, was incredible.

    It shocked people, and turned a lot of people off in this country on religion in general, particularly with the younger crowd.

    Consequently, young people don't have much of a choice these days when it comes to choosing to believe in a belief system or not.

    Either they side with their friends, and mock all people of faith, or they find their only support and solice in the circles of the neocons, who will baptize them in their doctrines of hate.

    Its a sad development.

  103. Whats the dead cat clif?

  104. Bart said "The "regulars" over at TP rule that place now, and if they've been steadily driving off all liberal and progressive Christians, Jews, etc.

    As soon as anything religious hits the board, out comes the slander and insults."

    And like you said yesterday.......that is going to affect their credibility and provide cannon fodder for fools like Coulter Oreily and Faux News to attack the credibility of Left Wing blogs and portray them as fringe wacco's who hate religious people.

  105. clif said...
    BTW Mike the "dead cat" has bounced and is comin' back down to earth today ..."

    I think you nailed it Clif..........the panic selling will resume when people realize how bad things REALLY have to be for Bernanke and Bush to do what they are doing.

  106. Whats the dead cat clif?

    A dead cat bounce is a term used by traders in the finance industry to describe a pattern wherein a moderate rise in the price of a stock follows a spectacular fall, with the connotation that the rise does not indicate improving circumstances. It is derived from the notion that "even a dead cat will bounce if it falls from a great height".

    The phrase has been used on the trading floors for many years. However the earliest recorded use of the phrase dates from 1985 when the Singaporean and Malaysian stock markets bounced back after a hard fall during the recession of that year. The Financial Times reported a stock broker as saying the market rise was a "dead cat bounce".

    The reasons for such a bounce can be technical - investors may have standing orders to buy shorted stocks if they fall below a certain level, to cover certain option positions, or for speculation. Since bounces often occur, investors buy into what they hope is the bottom of the market, expecting a bounce and thus make a quick profit. The very act of anticipating a bounce can create and magnify it.

    A market rise after a sharp fall can only really be seen to be a "dead cat bounce" with the benefit of hindsight. If the stocks starts to fall again in the following days and weeks, then it is a true dead cat bounce. If the market picks up starts to climb again, it was not a bounce but a bottom.

  107. Mike said...

    And like you said yesterday.......that is going to affect their credibility and provide cannon fodder for fools like Coulter Oreily and Faux News to attack the credibility of Left Wing blogs and portray them as fringe wacco's who hate religious people.


    Theres a heck of a lot more people who believe in some form of belief system, than who do not. Particularly Christian. In fact, the larger part of this country calls itself Christian.

    What possible gain does ThinkProgress hope to acheive by driving off people of faith?

    No wonder we lose elections.

    Hey. I have an idea.

    This blog can become a haven for liberals who have been persecuted in other liberal and progressive blogs for expressing their faith.

  108. Thanks Clif, I wasn't familiar with that.


    Thought for a sec you guys meant a real dead cat, lol.

  109. clif said...
    Ten year rate is 3.53%,

    Maybe the "re-fies" won't be as large as some think, because the economy is a crashing and interest rates are tanking because of that.

    Silver lining if you still have a job when you need to "re-fi"."

    Let me just say this right now at least the refi thing is a fantasy.......short and long term rates have come down a little but 30 year mortgages havent come down that much and lernders are reluctant to lend.......sure you can get a home equity loan at a lower interest rate if wanna get deeper in debt and you have perfect credit and the lenders will lend to you.........but try getting a refi that significantly lowers your mortgage payment.

    Sure 30 year rates will come down a little and there will be SOME refi's but not enough to end the mortgage crisis or even make a significant difference.

  110. Well, I stand by my earlier statements with regards to the economy.

    NOTHING will work until mortgage lenders start lending again.

    Look, loans ALWAYS default. We expect a certain percentage of defaults every year. Theres NOTHING unusual about that.

    And since lenders were making more "high risk" loans, then OBVIOUSLY the rate of defaults is going to climb.

    Everyone KNEW that, and everyone expected that.

    I'm not convinced that this crisis isn't being fueled by dems in congress and elsewhere, who want to make sure when Bush leaves office, he does so in a recession.

    When congress decided to immediately CRACK down on lenders, even though if you look at the loan defaults, their in direct line with the number of increased high risk loans.

    Cracking down on lenders, calling giving a poor sucker a break by lending him money when no one else would "predatory" is nuts.

    Sure there are "some" predatory lenders out there, but most just were willing to accept HIGHER risk, and thus, offset the bottom line defaults with an increase in overall revenue.

    But instead of the usual bailouts that occur in these situations, which always have brought the market back, instead the government is "cracking down" on them. Making it harder, if not impossible to offer loans to anyone other than 5 star credit, 6 figure income people.

    And thats nuts.

    The fact is, out of those higher risk loans that were given out, the MAJORITY of them have NOT defaulted.

    A lot did, and many lenders like Countrywide didn't budget accordingly, and while they deserve to be penalized, the American public doesn't deserve to suffer the impact of those penalties.

    If you crack down on mortgage lenders, then the lenders won't make loans.

    If the lenders won't make loans, then buyers cannot get mortgages.

    And if buyers cannot get mortgages, then sellers cannot sell their homes.

    If sellers cannot sell their homes, then realtors cannot earn money.

    If sellers can't sell, and realtors can earn, then builders and developers can't build or develop.

    If builders and developers can't develop, then ALL of the jobs they are responsible for, go away.

    Carpenters, plumbers, stone masons, brick layers, roofers, landscapers, painters, drywall workers, HVAC technicians, electricians, carpet and flooring contracters, well and septic service and installers, ....etc.

    And the list goes on and on.

    And beyond that list, lies the supporting industries that are required to make those industries function, like TRUCKING, Cargo transport, manufacturing of textiles, tools, home building products, etc.

    I know I'm not an expert in finances but I don't think one has to be. Sure there are lots of little things involved that we could talk about till the cows come home (and find the dairy out of business) but the fact is, if you follow the trail, it ALL goes back to the mortgage lending industry drying up.

    Until we find a way to make the mortgage lenders start lending again, NOTHING will jump start this economy.

    We HAVE to get the mortgage lenders lending again if we want out of this mess.

  111. What we need now is a BAIL OUT, for the mortgage lenders, and incentives to get them lending again.

    For what we've spent on the Iraq war, we could have bailed them out several times and still had change left.

  112. Hating them for "predatory lending" is what precipitated this crisis.

    Predatory lending to one person, to another is giving someone a chance they might otherwise never get.

  113. While it "sounds good" to say "predatory lending" and talk about how we're cracking down on them, the truth is our response to this is what made the crisis so bad.

    When congress started talking about cracking down, and even prosecuting "predatory lenders" and then passed legislation to force lenders to hold to much tighter standards on verifying income for prospective borrowers, thats when the lenders said fine, and locked up the vault.

    We need them to open the vault again, or NOTHING will change.

    The time for "new laws" to "crack down" on lenders is AFTER the crisis is over.


    Not when its just beginning.

  114. By the way Mike, could you make it clear to those clowns next time you go in that you are NOT me, neither is clif, or Holly?

    I left TP, and I'd never, ever post in there again.


    Tell them that will you?

  115. dolty prattled,

    I really don't think he'll get the Republican nomination, but IF he does, you'll see all the true conservatives voting independent this time around.

    You Chimpletons have raped that term till it's meaningless.

    "conservative" now means spending money like it's no tomorrow, Government involvement in every aspect of pne's private life, every letter, phone call, and email opened, detention without counsel and without charge..... about the only "conservative" that would be fit for your ilk is Hitler, and he was smoked in 1945. I'm sure you and your kind are STILL in mourning over that.

  116. I must respectfully disagree. Islam is just as heirarchal and domineering in the lives of its followers, if not more so, than the Christian religions.

    And that never was the point.

    Mussolini, Hitler, and Franco all swore great fealty to both Christ and the Catholic Church, and it was an ingrained part of the ideology. While one might be able to give Islamic-based radicalism another name, the term "islamofascism" is prima facie false. That's impossible,

  117. I left TP, and I'd never, ever post in there again.


    What is "TP?" Is it a blog?

  118. Atheists seem to have a hard time doing that.

    As an Atheist, I have no trouble whatsoever explaining my beliefs.

    As I've stated on dozens and dozens of blogs, as a former Catholic, I came to the conclusion that all organized religion is, at its core, a reaction to fear of death and dying.

    As satient beings, we can't conceive of the idea that death means the end of everything that defines us as living people: no more sound, no more sight, no more taste, no more pleasure -- just like a lightbulb being switched off, our existence ceases.I don't like it and I would imagine most people don't like it.

    But the problem with organized religion -- at least Christianity, is, the payoff for believing in an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, uber-parent like figure, is it turns us into eternal children. The reward for believing in God mean we get to sit at the feet of our "heavenly Father" until the end of time.

    The Supreme Being who Christians worship requires a leap of faith, a suspension of disbelief that is illogical and rather psychotic in its very nature.

    Ask a believer how their "God" can sit idly by and let a 4 year old girl get raped and set afire and they can't really offer an expalnation other than to say, "God will reward her in the next life." WTF? As a believer how their "God" can allow an infant to be riddled with brain cancer, and you get, "God chose the child." Huh?

    The God that the Christians worship, crusade and begin wars for, isn't a loving God if he, she, it, allows such horrors to occur.

    Just keeping it real...........

  119. Christopher said...

    As an Atheist, I have no trouble whatsoever explaining my beliefs.

    I notice you also have no problem calling them beliefs.

    Understand I never decried atheism in general, only the claim that the atheists in TP were making that it was not a belief system.

    Oh and yes, TP is a blog. Its a very mainstream very popular "progressive blog" where anyone who believes in god is not really welcome.

  120. Christopher said...

    Ask a believer how their "God" can sit idly by and let a 4 year old girl get raped and set afire and they can't really offer an expalnation other than to say, "God will reward her in the next life."

    You're talking to the wrong christians, and you're asking them the wrong questions.

    See, and don't take this wrong or negative, because its not intended to be, but most atheists I have encountered ask me the same exact questions, as if they were "mad" at the god they claim not to believe in.

    So let me clear that one up for you.

    A general and central theme of Christianity is the principle of "FREE AGENCY".

    The idea that God directs our very footsteps are the inventions of the overly religious and have little foundations in scripture.

    Man is FREE to chose here in this mortal life, and FREE to act, however, and whenever, he wants to, and if he can, without other mortals stopping him.

    This life, and this world, according to the theme of Christianity is little more than a test. A proving grounds if you will. Everything is temporal and thus temporary, and only designed to allow each and every individual to work out their own individual salvation.

    God does not FORCE anyone to do anything, here. Here we are "FREE TO CHOSE".

    Right from wrong.

    Good from evil.

    Postive from negative.

    And that means we're also free to chose wrong over right.

    Evil over good.

    Negative over positive.

    Its not GOD making the choice to rape the girl, or even to let it happen. It is mans choice, to do it, watch it or stop it.

    God is not the caretaker of this world. WE are. Jesus taught us that over and over and over, with parables, stories, etc.

    WE are the caretakers of the "vineyard" not him.

    He is gone. Stepped out. And put US in charge.

    Does he influence people for good? Sure. Does he try to coax them back off of doing evil things. Sure.

    But does he reach down and STOP man, each time he tries to do something wrong?

    Of COURSE not.

    If he did, what would be the point of it all?

    If man was NOT free to chose, then how can mankind be judged?

    If you take an alcoholic, lock him in a jail cell where he can't get booze, and leave him there for a year, you will have helped that alcoholic from drinking for one year. By force.

    But when he gets out, whats the FIRST thing he's gonna do?

    Thats right, get a drink.

    FORCE is the way of the adversary, at least per Christian theology as its presented in the New Testament.

    And likewise, FREE WILL, is the way God intended this grand experiment.

    The Free will to chose, and do good, or evil.

    Our choice.

    Not gods.

  121. Its interesting to listen to atheists get angry with the god they claim to not believe in.

    They talk about him as if he was a bad parent who they ran away from or something, yet they all claim to not believe in the guy they're angry at.

    Now I'm not saying thats you, but I do hear that same sentiment I hear from every atheist I've ever met. That "why doesn't god save the kids" stuff.

    Well god doesn't save the kids.

    We save em.

    Or hurt em.

    Its our choice, not his.

  122. Christopher said...

    The God that the Christians worship, crusade and begin wars for, isn't a loving God if he, she, it, allows such horrors to occur.

    Once again, OUR choice, not his.

    Jesus didn't say anything of the sort about starting wars.

    Instead he laid out some very basic, simple instructions.

    And they ALL center around one thing and one thing only.

    Being kind to your fellow man.

    And yet not one of these churches you're referring to, like the Mother Church at Rome with her 2000 years of torture, murder and all manner of abomination introduced to the world as the "Suppression of Heresy".

    The crusades, the torture, rape, murder, etc... all have nothing to do with the gospel of Christ.

    The truth is if the churches you're speaking of would just READ his words, and work on following them, none of this would be happening.

  123. It seems that the atheist doesn't really "disbelieve" in god.

    He just wants to believe in a god that does everything for him, and that removes any level of responsibility or accountability from his, and everyone elses lives.

  124. When a teacher in school gives you a math problem, does she also come over and solve them for you each time?

    Of course not. How could you learn anything if she does it for you?

    Same thing here on earth.

    How can anyone learn to do good things, if everytime someone does a bad one, God jumps down from a cloud and forcibly stops them?


    The concept is ridiculous.

  125. If this short, temporary mortal life IS a test, then obviously Gods not going to give us the answers.

    We have to use the minds, bodies and resources he gave us, to find them out for ourselves.

    You don't like seeing kids get raped? Fine. Become a Policeman. Join NBC Dateline Sting.


    Sitting back and crying about how Gods not stopping all these bad people however is just ridiculous.

  126. Theres a few BILLION of us.

    If we want the bad guys stopped, then we've got more than enough of us to do something about it.

    We just have to be willing to take responsibility for our own lives, and societies, and not just sit back and declare God does not exist because he won't come down off his cloud and fix all the things that we've broke.

  127. Under your plan, your ideaology, there would be no free will.

    God would fly in like Superman, and FORCE us to do good, each and every time someone tried to do something evil.

    Under the Bibles plan however, we're FREE to choose for ourselves.


    And I for one, like plan B better.

  128. BARTLEBEE said...
    While it "sounds good" to say "predatory lending" and talk about how we're cracking down on them, the truth is our response to this is what made the crisis so bad.

    When congress started talking about cracking down, and even prosecuting "predatory lenders" and then passed legislation to force lenders to hold to much tighter standards on verifying income for prospective borrowers, thats when the lenders said fine, and locked up the vault.

    We need them to open the vault again, or NOTHING will change.

    The time for "new laws" to "crack down" on lenders is AFTER the crisis is over.


    Not when its just beginning."

    Ok, while you are 100% correct that we NEED to get the lenders lending again.............there needs to be a clear and reasonable standard loaning to people with low incomes and less than perfect credit is one thing and thats fine............lending to people who dont have a prayer of being able to repay the loan just to rake in a fat origination fee and/or bonus IS MOST CERTAINLY predatory lending, it creates a vicious circle where forclosures lower the value of other homes which cause more defaults and forclosures which causes layoofs and higher unemployment and recession and its hard to get out the the vicious circle once it starts.

    Loaning to the economically disadvantaged is one thing but jeprodizing the entire economy with reckless lending to benefit yoursself at the expense of the many based on greed is dispicable and should be punished severely........I sure thats not your position but i just wanted to clarify the difference.

    Check out the article I wrote last week on this

  129. Hippocratic Oath or Hypocritic Oath You Decide?

    I feel like we've been living in some kind of bizarrro twilight zone episode the last 6 or 7 years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but just like doctors take a hippocratic oath to “do thy patient no harm”, doesnt our countries president also take an oath to defend and uphold the US Constitution, and dont other various professionals like lawyers, mortgage brokers, realtors etc... also take an oath saying they have a fiduciary duty to look after and protect their clients best interests rather than their own.

    What is my point you might ask, ok, i'll get to the point, i'm sick and tired of the bogus Conservative talking point that the poor saps who were misled and duped into taking on mortgage loans they didnt have a prayer of being able to pay back is a buyer beware type thing and they got what they had coming to them for not understanding the terms of the contract.............call me silly here, but I was under the impression that the mortgage brokers had a fiduciary duty to look out for the BUYERS interests and only qualify them for loans they could afford based on their ability to reasonably repay, not neglect their fiduciary duty to the buyer and promote their OWN greedy self interests by raking in fat loan origination fees and bonuses for negligently qualifying buyers for loans EVERYONE but a fool could clearly see they did not stand a chance of repaying. Conservatives keep mindlessly spewing and regurgitating the Orwellian party rhetoric and talking points like "we cant bail out reckless speculation at tax payer expense ". and "they signed the contract they need to be responsible for their actions"

    Let me just give these bogus talking points their due..........

    1) Like i said the mortgage brokers are the "so called" experts and professionals, they had a fiduciary duty to both the buyers first and their company second to give the buyers sound advice and only qualify them for loans they could afford. Instead THEY acted recklessly and irresponsibly and gave advice that benefitted themselves at their clients and companies expense. When we go to a doctor or lawyer we assume they are the experts in the area in which we seek their advice and further we expect they will use their knowledge to advise us, protect us and look out for our best interests and when they fail to do so and succomb to greed and put their own interests first they lose their license and are disbarred.

    President Bush and the Federal Reserve are using smoke and mirrors to make it "appear they are flip flopping on their Orwellian party rhetoric and talking points like "we cant bail out reckless speculation at tax payer expense ". and "they signed the contract they need to be responsible for their actions" but in reality they are doing very little, they have done nothing to help the millions that have allready lost their homes due to this predatory vulture lending, they have done nothing to address the prime loans that are about to default or the people that have gone into excessive debt, ruined their credit and are near bankruptcy trying to keep their homes. What this is, is a smoke screen to provide camaflage to bail out the the wealthy Wall Street brokerage firms. Let me correct the Conservative Doublespeak and BS rhetoric.........tax payer bailouts and welfare is fine if it is corporate welfare and bailouts for the wealthy elites. As long as the bailouts and welfare is for the Wallstreet elites and NOT the working class which constitutes the overwhelming majority of America it is perfectly fine and acceptable to the Conservative hypocrites. Take the huge tax cuts the oil and energy companies get from the Bush Administration for example are these cuts tied to anything productive like developing renewable cleaner alternative sources of energy like wind, natural gas, nuclear, clean coal, electric cars etc..., are they tied to increased production and refining, increased fuel economy; or is it a form of corporate welfare where the oil companies are Reagan's "Welfare Queens" getting government dole while raking in record profits at the expense of the working class and providing NOTHING of value in return. Say what you want about Bill Clinton, but he started welfare to work and at least demanded something in return for collecting welfare. Conservative’s often screech about free markets and capitalism, I wish we truly had freemarket capitalism, what Bush has given us is crony capitalism.

    Right now we essentially have the fox in charge of the chicken coup. In summary we have a President who took an oath to defend and uphold the US Constitution, and instead he calls it a "goddamn piece of paper" and tries to torch it and has become the greatest enemy and threat the Constitution has ever known in our entire history, we have government regulators at the FCC and SEC whose job it is to protect consumers, diversity of opinion and truth in the media who have never seen a merger they didn’t like, and who could care less about the American people or ideals they were empowered to protect but only care about protecting the interests of the oil and media lobbies who are lining their pockets and pulling their strings. They could care less about protecting the consumer from the ruthless price gouging of the monopolies and oligopolies, and from media empires deceiving and manipulating people with their corporate fascist agendas. We have mortgage brokers lining their own pockets at the expense of those they were supposed to advise and protect, we have doctors and insurance and HMO companies who care more about lining their own pockets than providing quality health care and saving lives, we have Senators whose job it is to protect children from sexual predators who are sexual predators themselves.

    So in conclusion I have to say it looks like "do thy patient no harm" has become in conservative jargon a "quaint" and antiquated way of thinking it has been replaced by a greed is good mentality. The hippocratic oath has been replaced by a hypocritic oath, we NEED to decide in the 2008 election if hypocrisy is acceptible or if we want to go back to the days of the hippocratic oath and restore honor and integrity to our country, by taking it back from the entrenched special interests.

    By Mike

  130. Mike said...

    Ok, while you are 100% correct that we NEED to get the lenders lending again.............there needs to be a clear and reasonable standard loaning to people with low incomes and less than perfect credit is one thing and thats fine............lending to people who dont have a prayer of being able to repay the loan just to rake in a fat origination fee and/or bonus IS MOST CERTAINLY predatory lending

    I disagree. You can call it that, but thats a name we made up to attack the lending companies for people not being able to pay their bills.

    A fat origination fee is the price of borrowing money when you've got poor or no credit. This isn't Sunday School and these businesses have no obligation to lend any of us money, particularly those of us with less than perfect credit.

    IF there is no incentive to offset their risk, why in the WORLD would they lend anyone money who doesn't have five star credit and an income big enough that he really doesn't need the loan?

    Do you see what I'm saying?

    Sure there are some out there that can be called predatory lending. Companies that plan on foreclosing for instance, and just lend the money long enough to foreclose and resell the property. But those types of businesses are risky themselve, and they're few and far between.

    That the lenders are greedy is not in doubt. That they charge too much sometimes is not in doubt, but the fact is, if they didn't, millions of people would never get loans.

    I for example, own several homes. I am not wealthy, and my credit while good, is not stellar. Nothing bad on it, cept maybe a slow pay here and there and lots and lots of debt, but its not 5 star, like it would be if I made 350,000 per year and didn't owe anyone anything.

    So I too have taken out ARM loans and such, not on all my properties of course, my main home is on a 30 year fixed at 5.25 percent interest. But these other properties, I could never own if it weren't for what you guys call "predatory lenders". Sure they charge through the nose, but you just factor that in to your costs, and if you're the least bit clever, you can offset it down the road through refinancing and such.

    But do I call these guys who helped me, predatory lenders? Did they hurt me?

    Can you say they were mean to me?

    Sure. They were so mean in fact, that they lent me money.

  131. By the way Mike, if you go back in there tell those c0cksuckers I'm not you, Clif or Holly, and that I'm GONE.

    Tell them for me that they HAVE my LAST WORDS EVER in TP.

    You posted them for me yesterday.

    They will get no more.

  132. By the way Mike, I have no problem going after CEO's and CFO's of these lenders who grab the cash and bail when things start to crumble. Thats different.

    But any talk of penalties for WHO they chose to lent to, is gaurunteed to do one thing.

    Dry up the money.

    Because the lenders will freeze up, and won't lend anyone anything.

    In fact, its whats happening now.

  133. What a bunch of trolls in TP!

  134. Well you are certainly right that we have a liquidity crisis, the money has dried up and lenders arent lending and that NEEDS to be fixed..............but we should in no way encourage lenders to loan to people who cant possibly afford the loan or reasonably pay it back......the approval process is there for a reason and the no doc loans where they didnt even bother to qualify and approve applicants so they could collect a juicy loan origination fee is a huge problem these people need to be prosecuted for destabilizing the economy and hosing market for personal greed.

  135. Attorney-Firings Investigation Heating Up

    The federal investigation into the firing of nine U.S. attorneys could jolt the political landscape ahead of the November elections, according to several people close to the inquiry.

    Washington’s attention has been diverted from the scandal since the August resignation of Alberto Gonzales as attorney general, and has focused instead on Democrats’ efforts to hold White House officials in contempt for ignoring congressional subpoenas to testify on Capitol Hill about the firings.

    But recent behind-the-scenes activity in several investigations suggests that the issue that roiled Congress in 2007 could re-emerge in the heat of the election year. Two inquiries by the House and Senate ethics committees are examining whether several congressional Republicans, including one running for the Senate this year, improperly interfered with investigations.

    As potent as the congressional probes might be, they appear to be far narrower than a sprawling inquiry launched by the Justice Department’s Office of Inspector General (OIG) and the Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR).

    Investigators from these offices have been questioning whether senior officials lied to Congress, violated the criminal provisions in the Hatch Act, tampered with witnesses preparing to testify to Congress, obstructed justice, took improper political considerations into account during the hiring and firing of U.S. attorneys and created widespread problems in the department’s Civil Rights Division, according to several people familiar with the investigation.

    The internal Justice Department probe cannot bring charges but can refer findings to a U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia or a special prosecutor, who could then pursue a criminal investigation. One source close to the investigation expects the offices to issue a scathing report within the next three months, but they have not announced a timeline for their joint inquiry.

    Maybe with Speedy Gonzo gone, and Bush losing credibility in Washington, the DOJ career attorneys just might care about truth and justice even more then they fear retribution about now, hopefully it is so.

    Just two questions however;

    Will that "scathing report" be made public,

    and if it is;

    Will the MSM pay any attention.

  136. Wanna know why we can never "win" in Iraq?

    Read this and think about how you would feel if the US military entered YOUR hometown, or neighborhood if you live in a large large city .... this way;

    100,000 lbs. of Bombs to Enter a Village?

    There's an article in this morning's New York Times about the limitations of our new MRAP (mine-resistant armored personnel carrier). It seems a recent roadside bomb managed to kill the gunner, although the other passengers survived with only broken feet and lacerations. The article is interesting, but not earth shattering. No one ever said that the MRAP could sustain any explosion, and it did largely do its job in an blast "large enough “to take out” a heavily armored Bradley Fighting Vehicle."

    What I found alarming is buried deep in the article. The MRAP was on a mission:

    Saturday’s deadly attack came on the first day of an operation to clear insurgents from southern Arab Jabour, a rural, overwhelmingly Sunni area less than 10 miles southeast of Baghdad on the Tigris River. The primary target is Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the homegrown extremist group that American intelligence says is foreign led.

    The bomb went off at 4:45 p.m., as engineers were driving beside an irrigation ditch to support soldiers of the First Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment, Second Brigade Combat Team, Third Infantry Division, who had been clearing farmhouses and villages since a dawn air assault.

    That might seem like an ordinary mission, but let's look at that air assault.

    The threat from buried bombs was well known before of the operation. To help clear the ground, the military had dropped nearly 100,000 pounds of bombs to destroy weapons caches and I.E.D.’s.

    My first reaction is to ask how much 100,000 pounds of bombs cost to manufacture and ship to Iraq. Are we using 100,000 pounds of bombs to rototill villages before our troops enter them, all in an (apparently failed) attempt to defuse Improvised Explosive Devices (IED's)?

    [Ed. note: Arab Jabour is, by one report, "15km long, 5km wide"].

    That strikes me as insane. If that is the cost of a U.S. convoy entering a hostile village (this one, a mere 10 miles from Baghdad) then we cannot afford to do convoys. This is a scam. Who's making these bombs? What are their profit margins?

    And what is the collateral damage from operations like this?

    I can answer that one from the damage I saw on the ground after the assault in the first Gulf War, a hell of a lot.

    that is minimum 50 2000 lb bombs thew ones with a "kill radius" of 1200 feet,

    or 100 1000 lb bombs with a kill radius of 600 feet.

    which means a lot of dead civilians if they were unfortunate to live, work, go to school, or just be walking or standing in the area they decided to bomb,


    "win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people".

    Wanna bet they are failing miserably at that?

    BTW the surge is working so well that they have to drop 100,000 lbs of ordinance only ten miles from the center of "surge success-ville".

    But to some dropping 100,000 lbs of bombs on Iraqi people is success, and they cheer it on time after time. People like the reichwing trolls, the reichwingers who back this illegal war, and the talking heads too gutless to go fight, but very good at cheer leading immoral bombings like this.

  137. Please read the new post I put up on the recession "FREEDOM FOR FEAR"

  138. Interesting time in the repubie campaign;

    Both Ru-die and the hucklebee has campaign senior staff working FOR no pay at the current time, while even John Edwards has enough money to pay his staff.

    Freddy the fraud already dropped out, and possibly Rudie will also if he does poorly in Florida where he is polling fourth in some polls.

    The huckster might also because he runs out of money;

    That would leave

    Willard M Romney with his all sides for everyone stance on the issues, and st Johnny the Delusional (100 years in Iraq), to duke it out, while Ron batsh*t crazy Paul is raising quite a lot of money even if that doesn't translate into votes or delegates.

    Hell of a legacy for the chimperor to leave the party of criminally organized corruption pedophile protection and false hypocritical family values.

    The reichwing is living the saga of going from the La Costa Nostra to the Sopranos in just three years.

    heck of a job georgie, and KKKarl.

  139. Mike, those "no docs" are a critical component for anyone who is a developer or investor. Some of us buy a home from time to time, renovate it, then turn it for a nice profit.

    While our income on paper might not meet with the requirements to obtain the loan, we still are perfectly capable of meeting the obligation. Its just a matter of knowing what you're doing. Its called "flipping", and its not a crime and its not a sleazbag industry. Its an industry which is responsible for 90 percent of the urban renewal you see going on around the country.

    People with moderate capital, buy homes, borrow more than the price of the home on a no doc, use the surplus amount to renovate the home and make the first few mortgage payments, then sell it, for a handsome profit, pay off the loan and keep the rest thats left over after taxes.

    In fact, theres several shows on HGTV about flipping, like "FLIP THIS HOUSE".

    Its a great way to make some quick spare cash and many people thats all they do. Now I don't do it very often, because I have other things keeping me busy, but if I didn't I would. I would just do that all the time, because its fun, it improves the community in which you're working and its good money.

    People just don't understand what they're saying on this stuff. They think about the scare stories congress wants to feed you because congress wants to look punative on the lenders so as to discredit Bush, but the fact is not THAT many more people defaulted on loans than in previous years, IF you factor in all the new high risk loans that were written.

    No I'm sorry but you're not taking in the full picture. You're giving me the congressional talking points about penalizing lenders and using their recently invented terminologies used to sell their scare game. Just like Bush used Al Quaida and Bin Laden to get what he wants Congress is using the economy to scare people because they want a democrat to win in November, and they think a bad economy under Bush will ensure that.

    We were experincing a minor but expected crisis when some of the new ARMS came back in default, as they came to maturity. That figure was higher than expected, but not ridiculously high. So we should not have paniced, but instead had the Fed cut interest rates about 3 months ago, funnel a few hundred billion into the mortage lenders in the form of bailouts and offer some tax incentives to lenders who make loans, and even higher incentives for lenders who make ARM loans that don't go into default when they reset.

    Believe me the lenders were already policing themselves and tighting up their standards. They didn't need congress to tell them. Once Countrywide saw the defaults came in higher than expected, they tightened up a bit, but when the fed didn't step in and help, WHEN THEY SHOULD HAVE, and lower the interest rates so they could keep writing loans and recoup their losses, their capital dried up.

    And thats when the crisis hit.

    And congress did nothing because they wanted it to happen to make Bush look bad and Bush did nothing, because he just doesn't know how to do anything.

    The truth is we should have been calm about this, bailed out the lenders, watched them to make sure they were doing their own in house tightening and tweaking, but other than a small bailout and cutting the interest rate significantly back when it started, they should have stayed out of it.

    When you're in an airplane and an engine goes out you don't climb out on the wing and try and fix it.

    You try to bring the plane in for a safe landing first. Then, if you're still alive, then you can fix the engine.

  140. By the way you can thank me later, because I just gave you the 10 minute version of the "CARLTON SHEETS" CD, "No Money Down", lol.

  141. Lydia's right about the new section she just put up.

    Its all the tactics of fear.

    Bush is just trying to get out of town without being impeached or arrested, and Congress wants 2008 to be the worst financial year on record so they can blame it on Bush.

    Its easy to jump on the bandwagon when someone says "THEY'RE TO BLAME".

    With Bush its "the terrerrrists".

    And with congress now, its the
    "predatory lenders".

    ooohhhh.. how scary....they're "predators".


    LOOK OUT, here comes one now!


  142. Remember Mike, remember the character of the 110th congress that we're dealing with.

    Remember the weak, spineless, liars that we elected to remove Bush and stop the war.

    Remember them?

    They're not someone I'd trust to give me the correct time of day, much less financial information.

    This country has had "predatory lenders" since the day the first pilgrims walked off the plank at Jamestown.

    Back in my day we called em "loan sharks" and "kneebreakers", lol. But really, (except for the real loan sharks and kneebreakers, lol) they are just people offering a higher rate for their usury than the next guy.

    It costs money to borrow money, and that cost is, and should be, commensurate with the risk to the guy doing the lending.

    After all, its his money. Why should he give it to you?

  143. Wow, I'll be popular this week.

    I've defended Mitt Romney, or at least a lie about him, in thinkprogress and now "predatory lenders" in here.


    I'm not gonna have any friends left, lol.

    Just kidding, I know we can disagree Mike, I'm just giving you my two cents worth based on my years doing this. I believe what I'm saying or I'd just agree with you. But I'm 100 percent confident that the quickest way to jumpstart the economy and get us back on track is simply to get lenders lending again. And doing away with no docs is the worst possibly idea that there is.

    It will KILL an entire industry, and the THOUSANDS of supporting industries that rely on it.

  144. I have a secret addiction: HGTV. It really is a wonderful respite from politics. It's also a very profitable network that helps people rebuild their lives.

    Watching these amazing designers makeover houses, Design on a Dime and Divine Design and like Bart says, "Flip This House."

    I LOVE these shows. I love that guy David Bromstead who makes over people's houses with color and his own original art/design.

    Ed Begley has a green show on this network.

  145. If we took the money we were spending on the Iraq war and funneled it to the lenders there would be no crisis. The lenders would be fine, they'd know it was a bailout and not recurring welfare, and they'd tweak their programs themselves to adjust better for loss. They'd charge higher interest rates which you can do in a tight fisted loan market because everyones grabbing for the money. Those higher interest rates on conventional fixed loans will cost the consumer a moderate amount individually, but will produce significant increase overall for the lenders to compensate for their losses.

    One thing we know, a tried and proven method of jumpstarting the economy was an interest rate cut at key points. Alan Greenspan knew when those moments were, and he cut accordingly.

    Bush's genius missed the key point about 6 months back, when he should have started cutting then, and made it attractive to keep lending. It will still help however, but they need to keep doing it. They've got to make it attractive and profitable, to lend money again. Particularly for home buying and building.

    Its the only thing that was propping up our economy for the last 7 years under Bush's "do nothing" fiscal program.

    It can prop it up again until someone smart takes over and starts pushing technology again, but in the meantime, if the housing market can come back, then so will the jobs, and the economy right along with it.

  146. :|

    what am I Suzy Orman?

  147. Remember all those stories for the last 5 or 6 years about how the housing market was the only thing propping up the economy?

    So why on earth would we want to start "cracking down" on it now?

  148. Remember in the movie "Idiocracy"? I know you saw it Lydia, I don't know if you did Mike, but theres a scene in there where Joe gets them to stop spraying their crops with a gatorade like drink named "BRAWNDO, the Thirst Mutilator".

    Their crops were dying, and they asked Joe, the smartest guy in the world to get the them to grow again. So he figured out it was the Brawndo, and they stopped using it.

    The problem was their entire economy was propped up by the Brawndo corporation, and when Brawndo sales plummeted, so did their stock, causing a panic and a crisis.

    Well, thats a funny story if you ever see it, but the concept is similar. Joe was right about the crops needing water instead of Brawndo, but he didn't stop to think about the repurcussions of just cutting off Brawndo altogether without finding a way to offset the obvious loss of revenue to the largest corporation in the country.

    So even though he saved the crops, he caused a crisis, which got him thrown into some kind of surreal Death Race 2000-like truck pull, but thats another story.

    Anyway in a nutshell, I firmly believe now is not the time to crack down on lenders. Instead we need to encourage them to lend, so that all of the industries that are propped up by home sales and building are thus once again back making money.

    Does that make sense?

  149. When little Timmy sneaks out to go ice skating and accidentally falls through the Ice, thats not the time to lecture or punish him.

    After you tie a rope around lassie and lassie drags him out, you get him home, safe and dry, then, you can worry about punishing him to see it doesn't happen again, if he still needs it.

    But not when he's under the ice.

  150. We're in the middle of a mortgage industry crisis which is spawning other crisises across the board.

    Now would not be the time to try and redo the entire program.

    When a ship is sinking in the middle of the ocean, its not the time to start addressing the problems with the ship builders meeting their standards.

    Get the ship, and the passengers and crew safely into port, and then you can deal with the manufacturing issues.

  151. Do I seem slighty interested in this issue, lol?

  152. Yes bartlebee you do, but the "money" which was underwriting the loans is no longer interested in basically junk loans sold as triple A investments, so they aren't interested in handing any more money over to be loaned.

    So yelling at congress or blogging here or elsewhere ain't gonna change the way the market works.

    People ain't too pleased with the hucksters behind the way sub-prime loans were marketed to them;

    (this is to differentiate between the people who took out these loans and the hucksters on wall street who set up the loans just to make a quick buck, NO matter what happened to everyone else, borrowers, CDO-SIV investors, and those who depended on them for their jobs, home builders, and the people who make what goes into those new or refurbished homes);

    So they are not too willing to be suckers for wall street genius's marketing campaigns or the next bubble ..... or a recreation of the last bubble.

    Good luck at getting banks or wall street investors allowing no document loans after how so many investors around the planet got burned,

    People like Norway's pension funds, Florida public services investors, (like schools etc) or hundreds of funds which invest money to make a profit while it is held in public trusts.

    Ain't gonna happen in the current market, and the loans that get made are going to be a little more stringent about proving your above boards. The banks have to GUARANTEE to their depositors and investors they are only loaning THEIR money in good faith, and too people with the ability to return that money plus interest.

    Sorry bartlebee, but your just another victim of the fraud which started on Wall Street for the greed of a few investment bankers, and Greenspan's attempt to use the credit bubble underlying the housing bubble to "float the empty economy for a few years longer", and even if you do not suffer as much as some, it sucks don't it?

  153. You're exaggerting the level of defaults just like Congress and the media hype is. Its not as bad as people say. I can't write any more on it clif, I've written a million posts already outlining exactly what my position is and I stand 100 percent behind it.

    The real problem, is not those junk bonds but the fact that the money's dried up in the housing market. That has a trickle down as I said several times, that is unsurpassed in other markets.

    When mortgage lenders won't lend it affects everyone ability to make a living.

    When the mortgage lenders won't lend, sellers can't sell.

    If sellers can't sell, many of them might slip into default (because some of them are selling because they can no longer make their payments).

    If sellers can't sell realtors can't sell. So now you have all these unemployed realtors flooding the industry, and defaulting on their own obligations.

    If buyers can't buy because lenders won't lend, then builders can't build because no one is buying.

    If builders can't build then the first thing they do is start the layoffs. And they lay off a lot of people. Not just those who work for them.

    Brick Layers.
    Drywall installers.
    Insulation installers.
    HVAC contracters.
    Well and septic contracters.
    Project supervisors.

    ...and the list goes on.

    And whats worse, the industries responsible for the manufacturing and sales of all the building materials see an immediate and significant drop off in sales and manufacturing, thus, in turn laying off their workers, and their vendors, and trucking slows and other transportation industry slows and they lay off people and on down the line.

    Its a pyramid, and it all goes up to the housing industry. Thats why Alan Greenspan warned us that the economy was propped up by the housing market, so don't mess with the housing market.

  154. BARTLEBEE said...
    Remember Mike, remember the character of the 110th congress that we're dealing with.

    Remember the weak, spineless, liars that we elected to remove Bush and stop the war.

    Remember them?

    They're not someone I'd trust to give me the correct time of day, much less financial information.

    This country has had "predatory lenders" since the day the first pilgrims walked off the plank at Jamestown.

    Back in my day we called em "loan sharks" and "kneebreakers", lol. But really, (except for the real loan sharks and kneebreakers, lol) they are just people offering a higher rate for their usury than the next guy.

    It costs money to borrow money, and that cost is, and should be, commensurate with the risk to the guy doing the lending.

    After all, its his money. Why should he give it to you?"

    Actually i wasnt even really refering to the investment property and people flipping houses, i never once advocated regulation for investment property...........I'm not some far left anti business liberal. I feel the industry should have reasonable standards for risk so as not to jeprodize the economy as well as the solvency of their companies. Same for investors, investors should know what they are doing or else they are merely speculators or fools and fools are soon parted with their money. In general principle I believe both the lending institutions and the investors need to be responsible for their own actions and not expect tax payer bail outs.........the problem with what is happening now is the reckless speculation by both the lenders and so called investors is so wide spread and rampant that it affects homeowners who bought their house to live in, entire neighborhoods asnd the economy and employment as a whole since roughly 40% to 50% of employment is housing related and to not keep the money flowing and get us out of this crisis would do far greater damage than letting the reckless speculators pay as the repugs all said initially..........what has essentially happened is the lenders have become to big to let them fail now because that would put the entire economy at risk. But as I said investment mortgages should be seperate from people who buy a house to live in,,,,,,,,that includes the lending companies finances which should also be seperate.

    As for the predatory lending, I dont know what definition the spineless Congress came up with for it ( and yes they are using this against Bush to a degree.......but after all the bullying and slimy lies and nazi talk he used to smear and intimidate them to get his way the last 7 years they'd be fools not to) My definition of predatory lending is strictly approving people for loans for their primary residence where they intend to live when it is clearly immpossible for them to afford the mortgage so they can collect a juicy origination fee. I'm not in any way including the investment property or the house flipping in the predatory lending catagory. What I would include is the No Interest loans and balloon ARM's with teaser rates to low income people with less than stellar credit for their primary residence.......to me that is crimnal.

  155. Lydia:
    I too watch alot of HGTV...I watch it because it is nice to see people finally get a home...and fix up places that need it...and Ed Begeleys show is a hoot- but also really illuminating....I wish that there was a show on there that educated more about loans etc ( some of the Virgin Buyer Shows are finally starting to do that...)

    I have to say the Ice Rink Lassie Analogy was amazing....I wish that we as a Country would realize that this matter is more than Houses for sale...or forelcosed- there are Many aspects - from all the workers effected to Foriegn Markets...
    ( CNBC is too foucsed on stocks- we need more explained about WHAT the meat and potatoes issues are .....ie What does the falling (fallen) dollar really mean? etc etc...)
    But in the meantime I will just read you and larry and Cliff and mike...and try to pay better attention...

  156. Did Engima just compliment me?


    I'm so not used to it after the last 3 months on TP, lol.

    Yea Mike, I see what you're saying, and I'm glad you're not a "far left anti corporate liberal" lol because we sure have enough of them, huh?

    One things for sure, if Bush thinks doing what he did when Bill Clinton gave him 1.7 trillon dollars to spend, and divide it up into tiny insignificant amounts and hand it out till its all gone.

    Because thats all his economic stimulus package was talking about doing again. Giving single folks 800 bucks, and married folks 1600.


    Putting us further into defict spending and doing NOTHING for the economy.

  157. Our country is predicated on growth, Housing was 40%-50% of the economy a housing collapse will cause mass unemployment and mass bankruptcy and forclosure and thats a vicious circle thats hard to get out of................We NEED to get banks lending again but we NEED them to loan to people who are able to repay.

    What I would do to fix things and let me qualify when you have a disaterous mess like Iraq or like this credid unraveling you dont have many good options.

    I would have cut interest rates more quickly down to around 3% to run the economy hot, i think to avoid a Depression inflation will have to be used to an extent to minflate debts away. secondly I would force mortgage rates down to allow people to refi and free up money. secondly i would make bankruptcy and consumer credit laws more amenable to the consumer and the working class.

    Congress should be tarred and feathered for passing a banruptcy law that seems to have been written by the credit card companies to the extreme detriment of those they were elected to represent.........same with credit card interest rates Congress allowed them to charge 30% interest ........30 FDRICKEN PERCENT and Clinton and edwards talked like that was some benevolent accomplishment. When I was a kid I remember hearing that anything over like 21% was usery and what loan sharks charged now in an era when the Fed Funds rate is 3.5% credit cards can charge 30% plus penalties and fees thats dispicable and people cant even file for a bankruptcy anymore.

    We also need to change tax rates to give the poor and middle class MORE to spend, those making less than 15,000 shouldnt pay ANY tax, 15,000- 40,000 should pay 10%, 40,000 to 60,000 should pay 15%, 60,000 to 100,000 should pay 25%, 100,000 to 300,000 should pay 33% and those making over 300,000 should pay 45% plus there should be NO cap on social security taxes.

  158. I agree that the tax rebates is BS and wont do much for the economy other than showing a slight blip for the month when people get it.

    People will either spend it or pay bills with it then what after its spent.

  159. I mean, thats the stupidest idea in the world. Hand out insignificant amounts of money until its all gone and then toss your hands up in the air and declare "well I tried".

    Thats all Bush is doing.

  160. Our society is predicated on growth if that growth ends due to excessive debt and a credit collapse...........we will need another FDR type new deal to revitalize it..........and Lydia nailed it when she said building a Green/renewable energy infrastructure will do exactly that.

    Problem is if no one has money just like back then you will need to tax the ultra wealthy to accomplish that.

  161. Bart - I get your analogy to Idiocracy and Brawndo, the Thirst Mutilator... with Electrolytes.

    Yes it did cause panic when he started using water on the crops instead of Gatorade.

    One of the funniest scenes is in the President's cabinet meeting with the idiots. Priceless!

  162. ...shut up....I'm watchin "Ow my balls!".

  163. Yea any green technologies means job and manufacturing growth.

  164. After watching Hilary and Obama argue last night, all I can say is this.

    Its too bad John Edwards had to LOSE in order to find his voice.

  165. Hey guys, check out this story.

    Study: False statements preceded war

    Associated Press Writer
    59 minutes ago

    WASHINGTON - A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued hundreds of false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.

    The study concluded that the statements "were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses."

    The study was posted Tuesday on the Web site of the Center for Public Integrity, which worked with the Fund for Independence in Journalism.

    White House spokesman Scott Stanzel did not comment on the merits of the study Tuesday night but reiterated the administration's position that the world community viewed Iraq's leader, Saddam Hussein, as a threat


    Joe (Luke Wilson): “For the last time, I’m pretty sure what’s killing the crops is this Brawndo stuff.”
    Attorney General: “Brawndo’s got what plants crave.”
    Secretary of Energy: “Yeah, it’s got electrolytes.”
    Joe: “What are electrolytes? Do you even know?”
    Secretary of State: “It’s what they use to make Brawndo.”
    Joe: “Yeah, but why do they use them to make Brawndo?”
    Secretary of Defense: “‘Cause Brawndo’s got electrolytes.”

    Idiocracy is probably the best movies you’ve never heard of. In fact, it’s worth renting for the first ten minutes alone. It’s basic premise argues against the scientistic myth of the evolutionary progress of intelligence. Instead of the world becoming smarter over generations, it portrays a world where competent, intelligent people are outbreeded by promiscuous dumb people.

    The future portrayed in Idiocracy is one where everyone is completely stupid. Being smart “is gay”.

    The world is run by corporations. Starbucks is now a brothel chain. The most popular show on television is one of a person continually being hit in his testicles. The world’s water supply is replaced by Brawndo (a Gatorade rip-off).

  167. Oops - this is important that Bart posted, unlike "Ow, my balls!"

    Study: False statements preceded war

    Associated Press Writer
    59 minutes ago

    WASHINGTON - A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued hundreds of false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.

    The study concluded that the statements "were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses."

    The study was posted Tuesday on the Web site of the Center for Public Integrity, which worked with the Fund for Independence in Journalism.

    White House spokesman Scott Stanzel did not comment on the merits of the study Tuesday night but reiterated the administration's position that the world community viewed Iraq's leader, Saddam Hussein, as a threat

  168. The study counted 935 false statements in the two-year period. It found that in speeches, briefings, interviews and other venues, Bush and administration officials stated unequivocally on at least 532 occasions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or was trying to produce or obtain them or had links to al-Qaida or both.

  169. "It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to al-Qaida," according to Charles Lewis and Mark Reading-Smith of the Fund for Independence in Journalism staff members, writing an overview of the study. "In short, the Bush administration led the nation to war on the basis of erroneous information that it methodically propagated and that culminated in military action against Iraq on March 19, 2003."

  170. Named in the study along with Bush were top officials of the administration during the period studied: Vice President Dick Cheney, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan.

    Bush led with 259 false statements, 231 about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 28 about Iraq's links to al-Qaida, the study found. That was second only to Powell's 244 false statements about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 10 about Iraq and al-Qaida.

    The center said the study was based on a database created with public statements over the two years beginning on Sept. 11, 2001, and information from more than 25 government reports, books, articles, speeches and interviews.

    "The cumulative effect of these false statements — amplified by thousands of news stories and broadcasts — was massive, with the media coverage creating an almost impenetrable din for several critical months in the run-up to war," the study concluded.

  171. That study was on the front page of Yahoo.

    It looks like someones looking to try to impeach.

    Oh, speaking of impeach, I hereby announce I was WRONG, and Bush was NOT impeached.

    I am not a prophet. I am not a seer.

  172. Hey, quit making fun of "ow my balls!".

    Its my favorite show.

    Seriously though that study is amazing huh? Whats really amazing is getting a top spot on Yahoo news like that. Who knows, maybe they are looking to impeach the bum.

    Or at least set him up for a grand jury after he's out of power.

  173. "I got my law degree at CostCo."


  174. Things are bad and they're getting scary bad in the house market.

    Previously, the high-end real estate regions seemed to be somewhat immune to the foreclosure mess.

    No more.

    In the San Francisco Bay Area -- one of the most expensive regions in the country to purchase a home, a shocking 482.5% increase in Bay Area defaults have been recorded.

    Worst hit are Contra Costa and Alameda counties.

    How much longer until the people storm the Bastille?

  175. Yes Bartle...I indeed complimented you...because you take something complicated and explain it in a way that really works ( althought Lassie might be hurt by the analogy).....About the Impeachment issue- well, Wexler's Desire that some sort of proceedings Start is underway...and all of us can still write and call Conyers' Office to push....

    935 LIES that Killed is very much a BIG deal..and heavy evidence...Also Shows there was indeed a Conspiracy - HOW many people participated in the Lies and Propaganda ?

    ( also interesting timing it comes out before the State of the Union Address when we KNOW Bush will be pushing his Iran warmongering agenda Again...)

    You know we always here it will take longer to get out of Iraq...you know it is funny- the Bush Regime started humping their War agenda in Oct2002- and By Christmas it was aflame with "mushroom clouds etc"....and BY Feb it was Ready to go Full throttle...

    And just for the record- Garner was hired in August 2002...with a Sizeable Contract from the pentagon...out of retirement...

    So hmmm, let's see the WAR was planned that summer - August down at the Ranch....but the original Public Warmongering started in Oct, so about 120 days after Public Mushroom Cloud Proclamations- Bush and Cheney had the War launched......

    And so why would it take us more than a year to bring the troops home that Bush threw in there in 120 days ?

  176. Now the idiot is attacking you Mike because he's claiming you were trying to act like you didn't know me by saying "this bartlebee character".

    Obviously you weren't trying to deny knowing me because you posted a comment from me.

    I'd just tell him you know me from another blog, and so what? How does that change anything you said?

  177. Rest in peace, Heath Ledger.
    God Bless

  178. And so why would it take us more than a year to bring the troops home that Bush threw in there in 120 days ?

    E 4 E it takes longer to redeploy, then to deploy, because of regrouping, cleaning equipment accounting for lost or destroyed equipment, getting said equipment ready for return shipment in a place that is NOT set up originally to do it.

    When you deploy, you do so from a Military base in the US or possibly Europe, with both military personnel and civilian workers who's job is to assist you and make said deployment faster for the unit undergoing deployment.

    I did this in 1991, and got off post in 30 days from notice of deployment, returning took 2 1/2 months for the same unit. (It is a small specialized unit.)

    Also when you redeploy from a combat zone there are security issues that must be maintained which also adds to the time factor, because who ever is pulling "guard" is not involved in redeployment issues, and in the US you do not have to do that as you deploy.

    That said with 160,000 troops in Iraq it should take no longer then 9-12 months to bring them all home, because we redeployed from Kuwait in 1991 in about 6 months for the entire force sent over and we had 500,000 troops including 3 armored divisions, 2 infantry divisions and a Marine division.

    This redeployment would be harder because of the security issue, so the time frame would be extended somewhat, BUT if the powers that be really wanted the troops out of IRAQ, a year would be MORE then enough time, especially if they used a redeployment plan which pulled the farthest outlying units through units closer to Kuwait, (where all redeployments will have to go through.)

    Once we get out of Baghdad and have units only in the south-east section of Iraq things could speed up. There is a possibility that some personnel would spend a couple of weeks or even a month waiting for civilian airliner transport back home, but troops in Kuwait don't face what troops in Iraq do.

    Also Bush had troops moving to deploy as early as September 2002, which means he really had a six month deployment.

    The marine expeditionary division they used in 2003 was already headed to deploy then, and the 101st Airborne division, is part of the Army's ready units which can deploy in 96 hours notice.

    They used both, if you remember right the 4th infantry division was supposed to go thru Turkey and into northern Iraq, but the turks refused, so they never made it into country until after the invasion was completed. The 4th Infantry was a unit which was not already screened for deployment before they got the orders sending them to Iraq, and they were just arriving in April 2003. ( Just like we waited for the 3rd Armor Division to fully deploy in 1991 before the ground game could begin. they deployed from Europe, and it took them 3 months to fully deploy to Kuwait back then.)

    All in all IF they wanted this war over and the troops home, they could do it in a year, and not endanger any of the troops or lose any equipment. The Idiot in the white House just ain't gonna do that because he would have to admit what a LOSER he was if he brought the troops home from his illegal war. The troops have done what they have been asked, however the troops can not MAKE the Iraqis accept the neo-con solution to the fiasco Bush ET AL have made in Iraq, so unless Bush ET Al admit they screwed up, the troops will remain (We KNOW bush cares more about his feelings and never will admit he screwed up, then worry bout what happens to the troops......or their families.)

  179. That was HORRIBLE about Keith Ledger Lydia. It is so sad.


    I mean, he's just a kid. I liked him in A Knights Tale, and I think his BEST movie, was "The Four Feathers". Its one of my favorites, and he played his character so very well in that one.

    Now he belongs to the ages.

  180. We need to end this idiotic war on drugs, and start focusing on doing what Holland has done, and find ways to help people either beat them, or at least do them SAFELY.

    So many people have died for this bogus war on drugs, because once again, a small group of people got together, and decided to restrict the freedoms of all people.

    We've been losing the "war on drugs" now for 30 years.

    Like most wars, the best way to win it, is not to start it.

  181. On Jan. 23, 1973, President Richard Nixon announced an accord had been reached to end the Vietnam War.

    At least Nixon has enough brains to get OUT of an unpopular impossible War which the US government could never win, no matter how many battles the troops won.

    Bush it seems lacks the brains.

  182. Took Nixon long enough though, but yea, at least he FINALLY listened to the people.

    And he also FINALLY resigned, once he realized he was busted lying.

    Bush won't budge. He just sits there waiting out his presidency while the world trembles.

  183. The vile, homophobic Westboro Baptist Church, led by the religious nutcase, Fred Phelps, today announced they will picket Heath Ledger's funeral.

    Calling Ledger a "pervert" Phelps said their religious protest is intended to be a warning:

    “Be not deceived; God is not mocked.” Gal. 6:7. Heath Ledger thought it was great fun defying God Almighty and his plain word; to wit: God Hates Fags! & Fag Enablers! Ergo, God hates the sordid tacky, bucket of slime seasoned with vomit known as ‘Brokeback Mountain’ - and He hates all persons having anything whatsoever to do with it. Heath Ledger is now in Hell, and has begun serving his eternal sentence there - beside which, nothing else about Heath Ledger is relevant or consequential."

    Ain't Christianity great?

  184. Christopher, I went to a couple of military funerals here in Kentucky with other motorcyclists to form a wall between the fred phelps jebus based traveling hate and freak show and the soldiers families and friends as they entered the church or funeral home ........ those people are OUT THERE, and they love the attention.

    All we did is rev up our bikes, mostly Harleys and freddy's freak show couldn't be heard or seen. (and yes we made sure all the tail pipes close to them were pointed in their direction.)

    You'd think these supposed christians would find a better way of putting Jesus's words into actions then verbally assaulting grieving people.

  185. BARTLEBEE said...
    We need to end this idiotic war on drugs, and start focusing on doing what Holland has done, and find ways to help people either beat them, or at least do them SAFELY.

    So many people have died for this bogus war on drugs, because once again, a small group of people got together, and decided to restrict the freedoms of all people.

    We've been losing the "war on drugs" now for 30 years.

    Like most wars, the best way to win it, is not to start it."

    Where were you like a month ago,,,,(I allready know the answer to this question).......I posted extensively on several threads about the Reich Wings failed wars on drugs and terrorism that served to help and make stronger both terrorism and the drug lords and organized crime but greatly hurt Our country and our citizens and made them MUCH less safe.

  186. Clif,

    Good for you.

    It's a sad comment on our society when a funeral has to include counter terrorism actions in order to push back against the religious lunatics.

    BTW, Clif, bikes are hot!

  187. Hey Christopher, Do you think the THREAT of Bloomberg entering the race could affect the delegates supporting Clinton who would CLEARLY be hurt more than ANY other candidate by Bloomberg entering the race.

  188. BTW, Clif, bikes are hot! ...

    and FAST if the cops ain't around, but mostly the most fun way to travel anywhere in the USA.

  189. CLIF - you are my hero!!

    Christopher, everytime I hear about the hateful monster Fred Phelps, I can't believe he is allowed to get away with this. If there was an actual anthropomorphic devil, he'd be the devil.

  190. Christopher said...
    The vile, homophobic Westboro Baptist Church, led by the religious nutcase, Fred Phelps, today announced they will picket Heath Ledger's funeral.

    Thats sick.

    But I can assure you the Westboro Baptist Church has little to do with Christianity.

  191. By the way did you hear Fox News's John Gibson opened his radio show yesterday mocking Keith Ledgers death?

    He played soundbites from Brokeback mountain and called him all sorts of names and foul stuff.

    I can't believe that the right wing actually could tolerate a man who mocks the death of a 28 year old kid, who never hurt anyone.

    If Don Imus got fired then Fox news should FIRE John Gibson immediately.

  192. Mike,

    Yes. Bloomberg is in if the Borg Queen is the nominee.


    Phelps is hideous and has an evil heart. I don't get it.

  193. Mike,

    Yes. Bloomberg is in if the Borg Queen is the nominee.


    Phelps is hideous and has an evil heart. I don't get it.

  194. Wanted to give you all an update here in Missouri.

    Matt Blunt, our illustrious governor who cut over 100,000 poor people from Medicaid - most of them single mothers, the elderly, and the handcapped -- and then turned around and bragged about the surplus he had created; tried to eliminate the First Steps program which helps children with autism, Down syndrome, cerebral palsy and lagging motor skills and cognitive abilities; routinely had his staff destroy all emails because he decided they weren't public record; fired a member of his staff who suggested correctly that action was illegal and then launched a smear campaign to destroy the dissentor's reputation and credibility ...

    decided yesterday not to run for reelection.

    Life in Missouri may actually become good again.

  195. Cliff: thanks for explaining the deploying issue- that makes a sense- but it is possible to bring them home....also Hillary mentioned that we have 100,000 civilians there ( on the debate- that number was pretty high- I have no idea if it is accurate)....

    so that is alot to sort- but Edwards keeps saying that we can bring them all home within year...

  196. Bart -- I cannot believe John Gibson!!! This is horrible and grounds for firing the jerk.

    Beyond believable.

  197. Unfortunately we will have to endure one more George Bush mangled english language session during his last state of the union address Monday night.

    Here are a few ideas he might need to think about before he mangles the English language one more time;

    State of the Union is Poor

    Political Wire got an advance look at a new Harris Poll that shows the vast majority of Americans feel the "state of the union" is not good.

    Key findings:

    * 81% think that the current state of the country is fair or poor while just 19% think it is excellent or good.

    * 81% say that plans to strengthen the economy are going poorly while just 16% say it is going well.

    * 61% think the war on terrorism is going poorly with just 35% saying it is going well. The war in Iraq fares even worse, as 66% say that is going poorly.

    President Bush will give his own State of the Union address before a joint session of Congress on Monday.

    Easy speech Georgie,

    The state of the union has gone into the toilet since Jan 21st 2001, and YOU have been one of the main causes for that.

    How about:

    1. Owning up to your own personnal heck of a job

    2. Asking congress to impeach Cheney and You

    3. Then doing the right thing, reporting to the Hague for the war crimes trial you deserve?

    That would improve the state of most of the union right quick.

    The vast majority of America would be MUCH happier this next year if you did.

    But most important of all, we would get a full years head start on actually repairing the damage you and your insane clown posse and party of criminally organized corruption, pedophile protection and false hypocritical family values have done to this country the last 7 years.

  198. Perhaps we should rename the speech, to the "Shame of the Union".

  199. Tax rebates deal announced

    By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press Writer
    5 minutes ago

    WASHINGTON - Congressional leaders announced a deal with the White House Thursday on an economic stimulus package that would give most tax filers refunds of $600 to $1,200, and more if they have children.

  200. Wow.

    600 Bucks.

    Lets see, I just wrote a check to the Fed for over $30,000 dollars.

    Now they're giving me back $600 bucks of it.



    What a windfall.