Friday, August 08, 2008

BEJING: STUNNING! MIND-BOGGLING... NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS

The OLYMPIC OPENING CEREMONY in BEJING is the most stunning, spectacular, mind-boggling event I have ever witnessed, with the history of China told in human scrolls. Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism were represented in gorgeous pageants...







I am so happy that the IOC lifted the ban on Iraq. I was devastated when sprinter Dana Hussein thought all her hope was lost. I have been praying non-stop for her tso go to the Olympics. Here's an excerpt from Sports Illustrated:

Some athletes have been through far more adversity than others to reach the Beijing Olympics. Iraqi sprinter Dana Hussein is one of them. A sniper took a potshot at her while she was training in Baghdad. She runs in donated spikes. And all the risks she takes were almost for nothing: A dispute with the International Olympic Committee nearly kept Iraq out of the games.Triumphs of the human spirit; it's not winning but taking part. Hussein embodies both those sporting ideals. In Beijing, the terrors of Baghdad are being replaced by a new fear: having to measure her speed against the world's best.


______________________

A Personal Note: I want to honor Elizabeth Edwards' wishes by respecting her right to privacy during this trying time, but I have to say I am stunned and deeply disappointed by John Edwards' affair. I interviewed the Senator, his incredible wife Elizabeth and their daughter Cate Edwards — each on three on separate occasions for our radio show. I have always had the highest respect for Edward's humanitarian work, his plan for One America, his stance on eliminating poverty and his plan for universal health care. I adore his wife Elizabeth and she has been in my prayers since her admission that she has cancer. I have long been intrigued with how the "human element" often brings the best men down. The Edwards' affair is like a Shakespearean tragedy. Politicians seem to have feet of clay. In fact, all humans are flawed. As Leonard Cohen puts it, "There's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in." - Lydia

ELIZABETH EDWARDS STANDS BY HUSBAND
Elizabeth Edwards: 'John made a terrible mistake'

Elizabeth Edwards, wife of former Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards -- who today has admitted he had an affair with another woman and then lied about it during the '08 campaign -- has posted a statement on her DailyKos.com diary.

It reads, in part:

"John made a terrible mistake in 2006. The fact that it is a mistake that many others have made before him did not make it any easier for me to hear when he told me what he had done. But he did tell me. And we began a long and painful process in 2006, a process oddly made somewhat easier with my diagnosis in March of 2007. This was our private matter, and I frankly wanted it to be private because as painful as it was I did not want to have to play it out on a public stage as well"

She also writes:

"The toll on our family of news helicopters over our house and reporters in our driveway is yet unknown. But now the truth is out, and the repair work that began in 2006 will continue. I ask that the public, who expressed concern about the harm John's conduct has done to us, think also about the real harm that the present voyeurism does and give me and my family the privacy we need at this time."

322 comments:

  1. Russian troops are invading Georgian territory,

    Georgian Artillery is bombing a break away republic, including a heavily populated city,

    US tells Russia to halt attacks in South Ossetia ....

    Georgia calls home troops in Iraq;

    The lead story on the US MSM is worried about a single affair by a politician who LOST?


    In some ways we have our national media priorities screwed up even more then John Edward's personal priorities are .........

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  2. I can see the fury if Edwards had won,

    BUT he LOST big time .......

    and thank providence for that ...


    The media is still worried about the sensational instead of the news.

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  3. It is hard to believe, I used to watch his show "Crossing Over" on the SciFi channel all the time.
    He seemed like such an honest and sincere fellow.

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  4. US tells Russia to halt attacks in South Ossetia

    that one is almost laughable;

    Bush telling the Russians to STOP invading a country .....


    Yea right, I can hear Putin in the background on that phone call;

    "tell dat American Bushski,

    when hell freezes over

    or they withdraw fron Iraq,

    which ever comes first"

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  5. BTW for those of you who don't know where the Georgia the Russians are invading is;

    It's here

    If you look a little below the orange on the map you might recognize a couple more countries ....

    Probably not a good idea having the Russian army attacking a country which the US has had advisers in so close to US troops occupying another country we invaded.

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  6. clif said...
    BTW for those of you who don't know where the Georgia the Russians are invading is;

    It's here

    If you look a little below the orange on the map you might recognize a couple more countries ...."


    Yeah Clif WE might recognize MOST of those countries but McSame the guy who CLAIMS to be a foreign policy, national security expert and to KNOW how to win wars.........NOT SO MUCH!..........he's not any better at recognizing countries than he is flying airplanes or winning wars.

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  7. From the article;

    This was our private matter, and I frankly wanted it to be private because as painful as it was I did not want to have to play it out on a public stage as well"


    "The toll on our family of news helicopters over our house and reporters in our driveway is yet unknown. But now the truth is out, and the repair work that began in 2006 will continue. I ask that the public, who expressed concern about the harm John's conduct has done to us, think also about the real harm that the present voyeurism does and give me and my family the privacy we need at this time."


    Elizabeth Edwards

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  8. Lydia, given the above statement and its request written by Elizabeth Edwards on her website, its seems to me a poor decision for you to even post anything about it.

    She is asking people to just "stop".

    Its hurting her worse having all the "voyeurism" she said, than the actual matter.

    Now don't get mad at me, I'm just saying, I don't think she'd appreciate you putting it on the front of your blog based on her written request that you just posted.

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  9. This might explain why Russia is SO intent on regaining that part of Georgia;

    Georgia applies to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, angering Russia. Georgia also becomes a key US ally after agreeing to host oil and gas pipelines from the Caspian Sea to Turkey, avoiding Russia.

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  10. "I ask that the public, who expressed concern about the harm John's conduct has done to us, think also about the real harm that the present voyeurism does"


    Elizabeth Edwards

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  11. BTW this story also might be ogf interest;

    US military trainers not involved in Georgia conflict: military

    US military trainers based in Georgia are not involved in the hostilities between Russian and Georgian forces in breakaway South Ossetia, US military officials said Friday.

    "They are not involved in any way in this conflict between the Russian military and the Georgian military," said Lieutenant Colonel John Dorrian, a spokesman for the US European Command. "We have upwards of 100 military trainers who are in Georgia now. We've been able to account for all of them," he told AFP.

    Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said there were no plans to redeploy the estimated 130 US troops and civilian contractors, who he said were stationed in the area around Tblisi. The US Defense Department has been in contact with Georgian officials over the situation, but the Georgians have made no requests for assistance, Whitman said.

    "We have forces in Georgia, so obviously the secretary is interested in the situation there," he said, referring to US Defense Secretary Robert Gates. Georgia is the third largest troop contributor to the US-led coalition in Iraq and the US military has a longstanding program to train their forces. He said the US European Command's plans and operations center has been monitoring the situation in South Ossetia, the flashpoint for the conflict between Russian and Georgian militaries.

    "What they do in a situation like this is contact the embassy, contact our troops there, assess the situation, and begin to receive any information or request for support from the embassy, or any reports about US citizens being in danger." "At this point we are early in the hostilities. The situation is sort of dynamic at this point," he said.

    The outbreak of fighting also was being closely watched at the Pentagon, said a US military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "We're obviously very concerned. We are watching it closely," said the official. "We are looking at the situation, and how it develops. It's still early."

    The United States, European Union and NATO have led international calls for an immediate end to violence in South Ossetia amid fears of all-out war between Russia and Georgia.


    Wanna bet they knew about the Georgia's plans to invade the break away republic of South Ossetia?

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  12. Yeah, you're right. I'll take it down after the Opening Ceremonies...

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  13. BTW just to add to the excitement;

    '2 US aircraft carriers headed for Gulf'

    Israel Threatens Russian Air Defenses: 'We'll neutralize S-300 if sold to Iran'

    Looks more and more the foolish game began by Bush and the neo-cons in 2002, is comin' back to bite us all in the posterior .....

    But the corporate owned MSM has to have sensational news, to keep competing with fixed noise.

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  14. Lydia if you take that part down rename the thread if you can.

    That little happening in Georgia could very well be the Russians way of sayin' to George W if you attack Iran we can come this way.

    And they are much closer to the theater them we are.

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  15. Lydia Cornell said...
    Yeah, you're right. I'll take it down after the Opening Ceremonies...


    You hate me huh?

    Sorry, just reading it made me think maybe we'd be helping her to try not to talk about it too much. Not that anyone else will stop, heck you should see the cover of Huffington Post, man, I thought it was the Enquirer's website for a second, lol. But you know, doing our part and all.

    I think you did it tastefully for sure, your title, well chosen, but then I read that comment of hers and it looks like she's pleading with us to not discuss it, so I thought I'd mention it.

    She's a good lady (like you) and I'm fine leaving her private matters private.

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  16. Holy sh$t clif.

    I am reading that right now.

    What the F#$K is going on???

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  17. Dude. Russia is the last country we want problems with right now.

    The LAST one.

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  18. clif said...
    Lydia if you take that part down rename the thread if you can.


    Yea Lydia don't wipe out the thread or we'll lose these comments.

    Clif is posting some extremely important, breaking news that we don't want to lose.

    This looks really, really, really really bad.

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  19. clif said...


    That little happening in Georgia could very well be the Russians way of sayin' to George W if you attack Iran we can come this way.

    And they are much closer to the theater them we are.


    Thats EXACTLY what I think they're saying Clif.

    You might also remember me posting extensively (ad nauseum) on the Russia\China alliance and the threat of Russia to our forces in the middle east if we push too far.

    This is very scary stuff.

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  20. You know, its the belief of most Evangelical Christians that at the end of times, it will be the US and Israel against the entire rest of the world.

    Man I hope they're not planning on making that a self fullfilling prophecy.

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  21. It's 11:11...

    I posted spectacular photos of the Opening Ceremonies in Bejing.

    Never in my life have I seen anything like this. It gave me chills. I have to say, I am blown away by the artistry of the Chinese people and the creator-director of this mind-boggling event.

    But then they cut to George Bush and it sort of ruined it...

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  22. He ruins everything.

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  23. I am leaving this blog thread so keep posting about Russia and Georgia.

    Did you see Putin and Bush tonight greeting each other in their seats -- with a smooch?

    I see Volt's little joke..

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  24. Little being the definitive word there.

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  25. Lydia Cornell said...

    Did you see Putin and Bush tonight greeting each other in their seats -- with a smooch?


    They should get a room.

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  26. Those are nice pictures of China there by the way.

    Glad to see the interest payments on our multi-trillion dollar debt isn't going to waste.

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  27. Are you in Bejing now Lydia?

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  28. Bart wanna add a little insult to injury from the Russian point of view?

    Guess who gets to fly the Georgian Troops from Iraq to the Georgian break away province of South Ossetia.

    The United states Air Force that is.

    Do you think the Russian high command might start thinking with our military training the Georgian Military and the US helping fly some troops home in the fight, that we might have picked sides?

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  29. Clif said...

    Do you think the Russian high command might start thinking with our military training the Georgian Military and the US helping fly some troops home in the fight, that we might have picked sides?

    Yea, I know I would if I were them.

    I'm sure they're having DeJaVu all over again about Viet Nam and thinking maybe the US is looking for another proxy war.

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  30. Of course, the rub here is that the Georgians really do want, and deserve to be an independent democracy.

    After all they're fighting for it.


    Now that we blew our wad in Iraq though, I doubt we're going to receive much international support in Georgia.

    This is a conundrum to be sure.

    Just like with Taiwan, what do we do? Do we help openly, and risk open warfare with nuclear mega giants like China and Russia, or do we fold, and show the world that all that "Democracy in action" talk was just that? Talk.

    This just goes to show that George Bush and the republicans "shoot from the hip" policy towards the "smaller" nations of the middle east, is our biggest achilles heel now.

    If we had put on our diplomatic hats then, we'd still have the trump card up our sleeve. They wouldn't know what we would do, what we could do, or how we'd do it, with regards to military action. They'd have been "afraid" of us. Not terrified mind you, but just a good, healthy respectful fear. And that would mean we could have employed diplomatic pressure now.

    But, ole Bush just HAD to take the gloves off the first chance he got, and try and beat up the LITTLE kids.(Iraq, Afghanistan).

    Now, that the big kids see the little kids kicking our asses right back, the big kids aren't afraid of us anymore. Which is why they're thumbing their noses at us.

    Bush BLEW it.

    I just can't believe there are still people out there that cannot see this.

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  31. Just like in the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", Iraq has become our "wolf cry", and now no one wants to hear it any more.

    We literally shot our wad in Iraq.

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  32. Rest in Peace Bernie Mac.

    50 is way, way too young to go.

    We've lost a lot of men too young recently. Tony Snow, Tim Russert, George Carlin, now Bernie Mac.

    You know, as much as people are praising the troops and all, I hope this points out to people that you don't need to be a soldier to die.

    And you don't need terrorists to kill you to die.

    We all die. Many of us, will die soon. All we can do is decide how we're going to live.

    We can either scratch and claw for life, killing anything that looks at us crosseyed, like the coward Republicans would have us do.

    Or we can be at peace with eternity, and live at peace with each other. Its our choice.

    Either live at peace with each other and accept our fates, or live like snibbling cowards, murdering thousands to stay alive a few minutes more.

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  33. "All you can do is decide what to do with the time given to you"

    Gandalf the Gray

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  34. BTW that little war thingy between Russia and Georgia:

    Well st Johnny McSame's campaign has somebody very high up who helped Georgia get where it is at,

    Scheunemann Helped U.S. Firm Win Georgian Energy Deals While Lobbying For Georgia’s NATO Membership

    and Bart, the war isn't about whether Georgia is free from Russia,

    It is about whether they can force a province of people who DON"T want to break away from Russia to remain as part of their country.

    The war is whether the people of South Ossetia have to rejoin Georgia who invaded them to force them to do so, after they broke away from Georgia in the early 1990's, or whether they will be allowed to rejoin Russia like the majority seem to want.

    The Russians have given the people of South Ossetia assurances that they won't abandon them while the US under Bush tried to find a way around Russia for gas and oil pipelines.

    The province is needed by the Georgians for their pipeline, but like most everything else the neo-cons and Bush have done they NEVER admit the real reasons they are pushing for more confrontations.

    Here is more background;

    Georgia makes a power play _ and a big gamble

    and

    TIMELINE: Conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia

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  35. Clif said...

    and Bart, the war isn't about whether Georgia is free from Russia,

    It is about whether they can force a province of people who DON"T want to break away from Russia to remain as part of their country.



    Well, you're mincing words a little clif. Yes, I understand the history. I am practically 50 years old Clif, so don't think I am not familiar with the history here. Its been going on for a long, long time.

    Yes, the people of South Ossetia want independence from Georgia, but Russia is leveraging this to put their own forces into the region, and wage war with Georgia, which of course would result in the collapse of Georgian independence should Russian forces succeed.

    Or did you think Russia once defeating Georgia, would just walk away and leave them intact on their own?

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  36. At the end of the day, its going to come down to whether or not Russia can pull these regions back under their umbrella, which is precisely what the new rulers want.

    They want the "U.S.S.R" back.

    And I agree with everything you said about the Bush regime, and their role. Whats more though, is their role in "setting the example".

    Russia is growing more and more agressive militarily, ever since we invaded Iraq.

    US presidents for the past 25 years have been talking and pushing for global peace, and non violent ways to resolve problems.

    Then came Bush and the neocon cowards, who tossed all the peace building efforts from the last quarter of a century, and flushed them down the toilet, wiped their asses with the Constitution and taught the world that the US no longer values peaceful resolutions to their problems, but instead wants war.

    War war war.

    Lots of war.

    And now, the other players, are taking our cue. Just like I knew they would.

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  37. The opening ceremonies were spectacular the closing should be good too. Isn't it amazing what a little money will do? (ours)
    As for Edwards! I am very disappointed in Edwards. I hate being lied to! He has proven true to his profession as a Politician but a paid liar I mean Lawyer. I have no respect for them and he proves why.

    I feel for his wife and kids because of the lesson he has taught them. He has proven to be a worm saying his wife was in remission and he didn't love his mistress. What the hell does that matter? His career should be over!


    I do not understand not being honest or cheating on your spouse. Man he was running for President! Lying seems to be a requirement to be a lawyer also for a politician though I have to hope Obama is an exception.

    Stupid me I thought Edwards was a good moral man. I based my first book on morality during our founding and that we must regain our moral footing if we are to proceed successfully into the 21st century and we are not doing it!
    You guys have a nice weekend!

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  38. First time commentor.

    I thought the opening ceremonies of the 'Ollies' were absolutly outstanding!

    I suppose it was the intrigue for a part of our world that has been hidden from us for such a long time, that lended added punch. The power of the 2008 drummers; the precision of everything was unbelievable, and the genuine friendliness of the Chinese people came through in full flashing, brilliant color.

    I am really pulling for Dara Torres (American Swimmer) who medaled in the same games my friend - Nancy Hogshead - did in 1984. I guess you are no older than your 'six pack' say's you are.....

    -------------- AND

    Edwards fell for the most ancient of traps - that of his own ego stroked by a attractive women. Has this story been written throughout the ages- or what?

    Forgivable - yes.

    I don't think you through a seasoned marriage away over a 'liason.' Elizabeth Edwards is far too intelligent to do that anyway.

    I suppose the fact that he fell for this most basic of human failings, should be proof enough that he was not diciplined enough to realize the damage to his family, party, and millions of supporters. Marriage is many things - disiplne being one of them - I think.

    I am not looking for an angel to be President, and I don't understand America's facination with a Politicians fall - but this was just 'high school' dumb.

    Clearly Edwards career is over, and his family tarnished by his weakness (he made Elizabeth part and parcel of who he was.) the two will always be attached when mentioned - even before this dumbness.

    Living here in Raleigh, I can honestly say the local coverage has been more respectful, than that of the National outlets. I hope this will go away, and America can get on to the inevitable next 'scandal' - or even a real one given this administrations crimes....




    I never thought much of Edwards anyway, although I thought he might have made a fairly decent AG.

    It is best he just disappear - maybe he can take a trip on the 'Monkey Business' and come to grips with how totally stupid he is/was.

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  39. Anyone ever tell you you have a striking resemblence to Russell Crowe?

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  40. Some news channels we have. As I write this, Russia has just completed a massive bombing campaign of a Georgian Airport near the capitol city, has moved 10,000 more soldiers into the area.

    Georgian forces pulled out of the capitol essentially surrendering it to the Russians. Photographs are popping up all over the net showing the devasation and death toll, many photographs posted minutes after they occured via camera phones, etc.

    And what is on MSNBC?

    "Caught on Camera", a show about sordid affairs caught on camera.

    :|

    Some news channel.

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  41. Or did you think Russia once defeating Georgia, would just walk away and leave them intact on their own?

    Yes, but with the caveat that Georgia loses all claims to South Ossetia ...

    With out forcing that province back into it's fold Georgia has a little problem completing that oil pipeline that the western powers want so much.

    Putin doesn't need to control any of what the Georgian government had control over before Georgia INVADED South Ossetia, because with just that province getting what the people of that province seem to want, Putin has essentially blocked the pipeline, under cut the power of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili and by extension George W bush and the neo-cons in their attempts to reassert American dominance over the worlds oil markets.

    The two largest producers of crude oil are Russia and Saudi Arabia, and with out a pipeline that doesn't go thru Russia the Caspian oil will become controllable just like the Texas Railroad Commission USED to control the Worlds markets when the US was the swing producers. (most of the Republican and especially neo-con foreign policy under either bush has been attempts to reestablish US dominance in the oil markets around the world.

    Too bad God put so much of our oil under somebody else's country .... eh?

    Too bad the foreigners won't just do as the oil corps and their political minions want, that would make things so much easier for all of us, (especially the troops).

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  42. BTW Cindy Sheehan has made it on the ballot to oppose Senator Pelosi for her seat in congress.

    She won't win but maybe she can wake up Speaker Botox up a bit.

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  43. Another view of the Georgian mess;

    Georgia: oil, neocons, cold war and our credibility

    He has a good breakdown of the oil issue, which shows the pipeline and it's real significance.

    He also shows how the neo-cons have been using the orange and rose revolutions to prop up anti-Russian pro-American governments AFTER Russia refused to allow an Western oil firm to merge with Yukos, the Russian state owned oil corp.

    But the best part is this one;

    Kosove and territorial integrity

    This is all the more galling that this is happening in a context where the double standars in the West's policies have never been more staggering.

    We talk about the territorial integrity of Georgia after blatantly ignoring it in the case of Serbia, by pushing Kosovo towards independence (again, as I noted above, that this would have immediate, obvious consequences in Georgia was noted long ago by observers not blinded by Washington's rhetoric).

    We talk about diplomacy and international law after destroying both in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

    We talk about human rights and democracy after hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, millions are refugees, and after an administration made torture its official policy.

    (If you think this is about anti-Americanism, let me note again that I consider that Europe is fully complicit: we authorised or encouraged renditions on our territory, we never protested US policies and generally supported the War in Terror in practice if not in theory. Our leaders are generally happy to participate to the "cover" of these policies by supporting the grand claims about peace, human rights and the like, as if they had any more credibility ourselves, and they love to be seen in Washington or alongside the US on the international scene. Sarkozy and Berlusconi seem bent on being even bigger warmongerers, at their small scale, than Bush)

    It does not matter what Russia is doing. We have zero credibility to talk about democracy, human rights, territorial integrity, peace, diplomacy and the like because we have thoroughly trashed these concepts in the past few years.

    So, the question as to what our real intentions are when we hide behind these grand words HAS to be asked. The same question has to be asked of Russia, or any other player, but that's precisely my point: we see Russia as brutally playing power games: we have to see our side as doing the same.

    We're just as power-hungry and ruthless as the Russians - and probably a bit more reckless and hubristic, lately. saying so does not make me a Russian apologist, just a worried bystander.


    Given the background he cites, he probably knows as much an anybody writing on the tubes right now.

    I would suggest reading the entire article.

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  44. clif said...

    Yes, but with the caveat that Georgia loses all claims to South Ossetia ...



    What exactly does that mean? Yes "BUT" Georgia loses claims to Sout Ossetia?

    How is that "leaving Georgia intact"?

    You talk about South Ossetia as if its an independent state, which it is not. South Ossetia is still internationally considered part of Georgia. If Russia "liberates" it then they're changing Georgian boundaries and control. I am not supporting the socialists of Georgia or the new "communist-lite" regime of Russia.

    But you're mincing my words again, because the fact is Russia liberating South Ossetia would be like Mexico liberating Texas from the United States.

    So therefore saying "yes", then qualifying it by saying they take South Ossetia from Georgian control is like saying "YES...but NO".

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  45. Not to mention I disagree with you that they'll stop at liberating South Ossetia from Georgian control.

    I think Russia will take advantage of this opportunity to pull Georgia under their administrative control. Remember the shift of political tide in Russia is leaning towards a partial restoration of the old Socialist system, and I doubt the Kremlin ever got over Georgia's breakaway from the Soviet control in 1991.

    Right now Georgia is an independent Democractic Republic with a seat on the United Nations, and working towards NATO adoption.

    But as you so correctly stated, Russia is taking their lead from the Bush administration and is moving towards tighter controls, more agreession and a more police like state in their country, and pulling Georgia back under their administrative control seems to be the goal.

    I see an occupied Georgia, their capital guarded by Russian tanks, so they too can have their "Iraq" so to speak.

    They saw Bush had one and they said "hey, we'd like one too".

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  46. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  47. I'm not disagreeing of course on principle. We both know Russia should not be making this advance into a Democratic independent nation, anymore than we should have made our advance into Iraq.

    We're literally stuck between Iraq and a hard place here. On the one hand Georgia is our ally, and we have to support them. On the other hand we just did similar things to Iraq, so we have no moral mandate to condemn Russia.

    Its the issue we all warned the Bushy's about if they invaded Iraq. Go in, and the other superpowers will take the cue in their own affairs.

    Just wait till Chinese forces start pouring into the Taiwan strait. Then we'll have our hands

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  48. Issac Hayes just died. He was only 65.

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  49. Guys this is ALOT bigger than the flowery talk of freedom and independence..........THATS just the window dressing dictators and tyrants like Bush or Putin use to disguise their TRUE objectives.

    Clif's right this invasion of Georgia is geo strategical and its multifaceted.......in other words its too complex for Neo Con dunces like GWB to understand.

    Its both about controlling the territory in the event of an attack on Iran as well as controlling the pipeline.........russia and Iran control almost half the worlds natural gas and Russia and Iran are among the world's largest oil exporters.........MOST of those exports go to Europe and Japan who desperately NEED them..........if Russia were to gain control of a key pipeline that they could turn the spigot of to Europe and Japan........do you think Europe and Japan would side against their own self interests and back the USA over Russia..........its kinda like a teenager getting thrown out of the house and getting his credit cards and allowance cancelled..........regardless of who you think is right you KNOW where your bread is buttered and dont bite the hand that feeds you.

    Also keep in mind that the US has military bases in Georgia all around that pipeline so an attack to gain control of the pipeline could be an attack on the US military.

    Bottom line the Us has overextended itself because of the idiocy and folly of Bush and the Neo Cons and now Russia sees an opportunity to stick its thumb in our eye and compromise the Neo Cons plan for world domination as well as the national security of much of the world.

    Jerks like GWB and McSame CLAIM they and only they are experts on national security and can keep us safe..........EVERYTHING these buffoons have done has compromised and weakened our saftet, military, economy, national security, and made us MUCH less safe and prosperpous not to mention lost the respect of the world at large.

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  50. Putin saw a strategic opening because of Bush's idiocy and he took it now Bush is faced with ignoring Putin's power play that directly effects the national security of much of the world because our military is too overextended to do anything and also because he is still trying to curry enough favor with Russia to push tougher sanctions on Iran so as to push Iran into starting a war or at least giving himself or Israel the justifcation to attack......

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  51. I agree Putin definately saw this as an opening. I knew Putin was not going to let GWB leave office without calling him out at least once.

    I said a long time ago that Bush is a bully, pushing the "smaller" kids around, and that would only play so far before some of the bigger kids on the BLOC start wanting to test his mettle.

    Remember me saying this Mike?

    "George Bush showed the world our ass, and soon Russia and China are going to want a peice"

    We're definately on the same page. I've known for along time that before Bush gets out of office, Putin was going to call his bluff and show the world Bush wasn't so tough after all.

    Puts us in a bad position. I wonder if they'll draft guys as old as me?

    I know they're going to be coming for your young ass Mike. Better ride that scooter on up to Canada and pick yourself out a nice flat... just in case, you know?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Bart said "I said a long time ago that Bush is a bully, pushing the "smaller" kids around, and that would only play so far before some of the bigger kids on the BLOC start wanting to test his mettle.

    Remember me saying this Mike?

    "George Bush showed the world our ass, and soon Russia and China are going to want a peice""


    Yeah, you did say that a while back.........on that note remember the SCO alliance between Russia, China and Iran..........this is that alliance flexing its muscle and telling GWB to F#$% OFF

    ReplyDelete
  53. But I do think you and Clif are right this has the feeling of the possible precursors to a World War.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Like I stated before we have soldiers and military bases all around that pipeline..........what happens if Russia seizes control of the pipeline and the entire country???

    ReplyDelete
  55. Mike said...


    Yeah, you did say that a while back.........


    Only about 50 or 60 times over the past several years.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Mike said...
    what happens if Russia seizes control of the pipeline and the entire country???


    Oh I'm sure they will seize control of it. Like I said you'd better head up north and scope out a new crib.

    Because looks like Bush and the Neocons are going to get their wish.

    WW III

    ReplyDelete
  57. The Soon To Be Drafted Mike said...

    on that note remember the SCO alliance between Russia, China and Iran..........this is that alliance flexing its muscle and telling GWB to F#$% OFF


    Do you remember me writing ad nauseum on the "RUSSO\SINO" alliance? I wrote back in 05 about how Russia and China had completed the first in history joint tactical military training operations?

    I spoke on and on about how Russia and China were forming their own new "super-duper" power and how that would pose a SIGNIFICANT threat to our troops in Iraq by using Iran as a launching point to fight against US troops. I was concerned that soon we'd be back in another proxy war with Russia and China via Iran. And thats what looks like what is shaping up.

    ReplyDelete
  58. BARTLEBEE said...
    Mike said...
    what happens if Russia seizes control of the pipeline and the entire country???


    Oh I'm sure they will seize control of it. Like I said you'd better head up north and scope out a new crib.

    Because looks like Bush and the Neocons are going to get their wish.

    WW III"


    Well if Bush and his Neo Con cronnies REALLY were looking for an excuse to declare martial law to remain in power and escalate their war for world domination then their prayers were answered..........i tend to think these bullies and losers prefer to pick fights they THINK or KNOW they can win with countries ALOT smaller and weaker rather than countries capable of hitting back..............I hope thats not mere hope or wishful thinking.

    I guess we are living in interesting times............like Gandalf The Grey said ""All you can do is decide what to do with the time given to you"

    Gandalf the Gray

    ReplyDelete
  59. Mike and Bartlebee
    I have been following your conversation and you are right about everything except with Georgia this is not going to be the precurser to WW3!
    People are slow to figure out that Bush laid the foundation after 9/11 for ww3 and has been instigating it ever since. What is happening in Russia bush set up, also Afghanistan, remember him wooing the Taliban for the oil pipe line through Afghanistan.

    After they turned him and Cheney down what a surprise 9/11 happened and 10 days later Afghanistan was attacked.
    This is all coming to a head and all of it our financial mess, the middle east, the MDS created to instigate war, everything is tempered with ineptitude but done on purpose. That is why the chief scum is so happy and says everything is going well. It is for him and his agenda. It is all coming to a head at the perfect time for him or Mcasshole to take control and fight the forever war Bush set in motion! There is no turning this around. That time ended long ago!

    ReplyDelete
  60. Well Patriot, your right it sure does seem like the Neo cons crave war, and they have tried to manipulate and lay the foundations for war in Iraq and NOW Iran..........i think i used a poor choice of words.........i should have said Georgia could be the trigger rather than precursor.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Bart you seemed to have MISSED the entire piece by Jerome a paris, who knows a little more then you might since he has spent time there and worked in the industry.

    It appears that your definition of what a democracy is sort of got STRETCHED about now, as MOST impartial observers wouldn't call what Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is operating under a "democracy" but much closer to what we spent the last 3 years arguing WASN'T a democracy if Bush got to do it here.

    The "borders" of Georgia were drawn by Joesph Stalin, but the people of Ossetia both north and south sort of resent those borders, like the Kurds still resent the borders drawn by the British post WW1, and if history is any guide, it will be the people who live there who will finally get to decide what country they live in.

    Bush and the neo-cons have attached themselves to this problem like most problems they attach themselves to, what is in it for them, and how can they USE it to further their PNAC goals.

    However this time it involved a sect of people who REFUSE to be FORCED into Georgia which is why the PEOPLE of South Ossetia have fought since the collapse of the soviet union NOT to be part of Georgia.

    It is JUST like when the Yugoslav republic was crumbling, many people fought NOT to be part of Serbia.

    This time I see the Russian's NOT as aggressors especially since the Georgian President had called for a cease fire the day BEFORE his army attacked South Ossetia, which started the round of escalation, which Putin and the Russians RESPONDED to, since Russian Peace Keeper troops who were there BY international agreement, were killed by Georgian attacks,and tens of thousands of the South Ossetian population carry Russian passports, which means THEY think they are part of Russia.

    If it is what THE people who live in South Ossetia want why is Bush aiding Georgia in their fight to stop South Ossetia from self determination AFTER Georgia agreed to the terms in 1992?

    The Washington game of sending in a few lobbyists and lots of guns and money to essentially despots in small border states of Russia is about to be exposed as bankrupted, because of the over extension of Bush ET Al in Iraq.

    We go apesh*t if Russia wants to have client states in this hemisphere like Nicaragua or Cuba, UT it seems to be OK if Bush turns former parts of the Soviet Union into US client states. which is essentially Bush restarting the Cold War.

    If that is what you want OK, I prefer we start correcting the massive problems we have here at home and stop stirring up hornets nests around the planet for the culture of fear the republican'ts run on every four years.

    I prefer we start coming home from the 700+ military bases we built up during the cold war and start working to defend the US instead of using those bases as launching pads for proxy wars for corporate America. Let corporate America foot the whole bill if they want wars of aggression for their profit. If they had to pay the whole costs they just might not be so for sending US troops and advisers into regions they deem necessary for a better bottom line.

    This is just more of the privatizing profits and socializing costs, with the US military and taxpayer handling the burden, which corporate America reaps the profits.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Mike said...


    Well if Bush and his Neo Con cronnies REALLY were looking for an excuse to declare martial law to remain in power and escalate their war for world domination then their prayers were answered..........



    You know it. Course, I think they'd put him in a rubber room first but who knows? He's gotten this far.

    ReplyDelete
  63. clif said...
    Bart you seemed to have MISSED the entire piece by Jerome a paris, who knows a little more then you might since he has spent time there and worked in the industry.

    It appears that your definition of what a democracy is sort of got STRETCHED about now,


    No Clif, it seems you're busily engaged in debating a strawman position that I never put forth.

    I never gave any "definition" of Democracy. Hell LOOK AT OURS!

    I merely referred to Georgia correctly as a democratic soveriegn, which it is.

    What that term constitutes I made no such references or "definitions" as you put it.

    That's an argument you're having with yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  64. And I don't need a history lesson of Georgia Clif. I'm quite familiar with the history of the region. I mean come on. You know I studied ancient Christianity, right? Knowing that don't you think I'd know just a little bit about the Kingdom of Kartli,(Iberia) and how its developed?

    :|

    I'm mean we've talked before... right?


    And you know that Georgia IS a Democracy and is recognized as such by the United Nations.

    So while you may want to invent strawman arguments about "what" constitutes a democracy to just argue with me on something, the fact is it IS a Democracy.

    Whether or not its a corrupt Democracy was not part of my statements, and thus is a debate you are having with yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  65. I do NOT see Georgia as a democracy at all, (sort of the Zimbabwe style of non democracy if you will, Saddam practiced it).

    It is what certain elements of Washington establishment use to claim they are defending a democracy when they want to sell arms to Georgia.
    like I said;

    This is just more of the privatizing profits and socializing costs, with the US military and taxpayer handling the burden, which corporate America reaps the profits.

    ReplyDelete
  66. I don't care about 1000 year old things that happened there, just the last couple of decades, did YOU study that 20 years ago?

    ReplyDelete
  67. Or this?

    The warmongers have lost yet another war

    by Jerome a Paris

    Neocons are people that see danger everywhere and seem to crave military solutions in all cases. They endlessly blather about how we need to stand firm against bullies or other threats (Russia being near the top of the list), and protect our brave allies on the front lines, and along with them, democracy, freedom and our honor. They mock cowardly European who think appeasement (read - any diplomacy) might have a chance. They fuel conflicts and perpetually tout military options.

    And yet, whenever given the opportunity to stand up to their words (and sent other people to fight, of course, they don't do that themselves), the results are surprisingly poor.

    After the catastrophic invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, the neocons have just lost a third war, in Georgia.


    Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia'

    Georgia says its troops have withdrawn from the breakaway region of South Ossetia and that Russian forces are in control of its capital, Tskhinvali.

    A government spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians.

    Right. That's what you say when ... errr, let me see ... oh yes ... when it is a military defeat.


    Georgia Pulls Out of South Ossetia

    Georgia said Sunday it had withdrawn entirely from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia in an effort to stave off all out war, and that Russia overnight had launched major land offensives from the north and west of the country.

    Russia said it was checking whether Georgian forces really were pulling back from positions they occupied. One Russian military commander told the Interfax news agency that he saw no signs of a Georgian withdrawal.

    Georgia withdrew its troops "as part of a very conscious decision by the Georgian government to end this spiral of violence," said Georgian Foreign Minister Eka Tkeshelashvili in a phone interview. She said Georgia had delivered a message to Moscow asking for a ceasefire, but had yet to receive a response.

    "Please stop shooting."

    Even the WSJ, home of Georgian president Saakashvili for an endless series of editorials urgin the West to stand firm to Russia, is backing down:


    War in the Caucasus

    "War has started," Vladimir Putin said yesterday as Georgian and Russian forces fought over the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia. War is certainly what the two countries have seemed to want for some time, and the chances of avoiding a drawn-out conflict now are slim.

    It's unclear at this stage which side is more at fault for the current fighting. Georgia says it moved on the South Ossetian city of Tskhinvali yesterday after rebels there broke a cease-fire. But President Mikheil Saakashvili has long pledged to retake South Ossetia and another separatist area, Abkhazia, and may have underestimated Moscow's reaction.

    (...)

    Perhaps Mr. Saakashvili finally snapped and acted first here, as the Kremlin insists. If so, it was a huge mistake, as he has picked a fight with a much larger opponent and damaged his country's chances of joining NATO. The West may support Georgia's territorial integrity, but no one wants war with Russia.

    Oh, now they tell us. After telling us how Russia was behaving aggressively, threatening democracy in various countires bordering it, and how it was vital that we support these countries, including my military means (isn't that what Georgia joining NATO was about - about "attacking one is attacking all"?), they tell us that we don't want war with Russia?

    Is it because Russia, after telling us what would be considered a casus belli by them, actually acted on such announcements, called Saakashvili's bluff and responded with overwhelming force, kicking his ass, and by proxy, that of his gung-ho advisors in the WSJ and other neocon nests?

    We don't have to approve Russia's policies to note that it has been consistent and unsurprising for anyone who bothered to listen to them (something neocons don't seem to do, except to find proofs of hostility to justify their own macho posturing).

    Even granting that Russia has conducted an aggessive, outward bound foreign policy (as opposed to the kinder version that says they are simply reacting to Western provocations) towards the former Soviet Republics and beyond, this whole episode should disqualify the neocons from ever speaking about foreign policy again - they claimed the need for strength, the need to call Russia on its imperialism, the need to beef up the military of the threatened countries and to support them with the full force of the alliance of democracies - and they dumped Georgia at the first opportunity, after Russia showed it was actually serious about fighting when it got under way?

    We get the worst of both worlds: military build up, diplomatic tensions and deep mistrust within (former?) allies in the West, and defeat when the inevitable confrontation happens.

    Either Russia is a real danger, and we need consistent policies to address that (including, I might add, serious policies to reduce our energy use, given that Russia is the largest energy exporter and can, supposedly, cripple us with the "energy weapon" beyond the traditional military invasions and irredentism) or it is not, and we need to start talking with them and listening to them - and maybe avoid things like bringing our soldiers to their borders, cancelling unilaterally treaties signed with them, and endlessly calling them an enemy.

    Either we actually do realpolitik, or we don't. Realpolitik is meant to be distateful, but effective. What we have now is certainly distateful, but effective is the last word that can be used to describe it. Beyond the loss of credibility I discussed yesterday, losing wars and having cities in allied countries flattened out can hardly be considered great successes.

    What saddens me the most is that neocons still get taken seriously by the Serious People inside the beltway and elsewhere, and still get to influence policy.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Clif said...

    This time I see the Russian's NOT as aggressors especially since the Georgian President had called for a cease fire the day BEFORE his army attacked South Ossetia


    And I'd be remiss in pointing out there here too, I did not take sides in the conflict.

    But since you said this, I will say that Russia is certainly the aggressor at the moment.

    Its not Georgian tanks rolling into the Russian capital this evening.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Georgia and Russia have been squabbling since 1990, and Bush and his brainless neo-cons decided to USE Georgia.

    Too bad Bush ET Al SUCK at everything they do as the Georgians have JUST found out.

    ReplyDelete
  70. clif said...
    I don't care about 1000 year old things that happened there, just the last couple of decades, did YOU study that 20 years ago



    Once again another strawman argument.

    I didn't discuss "what" happened there 1000 years ago, other than to vaguely refer to it to point out I am familiar with the region.

    What I SAID was what is going on now, and apparently in all YOUR studies, you never bothered to read the words "REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY" in front of their names.


    You can bury my words clif with your 20 page cut and pastes if you want, but the fact is you are wrong, Georgia is a democracy, and you were wrong to attack me over that.

    And wrong to create a straw argument that I never made about how corrupt of a democracy it is.

    ReplyDelete
  71. And as for "using Georgia" I don't disagree with any of what's been said about the pipeline and our involvement, so please don't start arguing with me over that.

    One strawman is enough.

    ReplyDelete
  72. I didn't discuss "what" happened there 1000 years ago, other than to vaguely refer to it to point out I am familiar with the region.


    I still think your Voltron style of IGNORING facts and Tallltexan style of decrying article as cut and paste when the FACTS in those articles undercuts your claims are not strawman arguments but it seem to be part of your stock now a days.

    ReplyDelete
  73. clif said...

    I do NOT see Georgia as a democracy at all


    Well unfortunately for you the United Nations disagree's with you.

    :|

    And agrees with me.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Clif said

    I still think your Voltron style of IGNORING facts and Tallltexan style of decrying article as cut and paste when the FACTS in those articles undercuts your claims are not strawman arguments but it seem to be part of your stock now a days.


    Undercuts WHAT claims of mine?

    That I correctly labeled Georgia as a democracy, which the United Nations also has it labeled as???

    Look it up. Its a democracy.

    So what CLAIM of mine do you think you are refuting?

    ReplyDelete
  75. And leave the insults at the door Clif. I don't need it.

    Whenever anyone disagree's with you you start labling them trolls.

    I don't appreciate it.

    You don't like what I'm saying, fine.

    REFUTE something.

    Don't cut and paste someone elses words and point to it and say it refutes me.

    Tell us what I said that you are refuting. Cut and paste MY WORDS, and show me which ones you think you are refuting.

    As for you claims of how YOU see Georgia, sorry, until you can convince the United Nations to reclassify it right now its considered a representative democracy.

    Regardless of what you think.

    ReplyDelete
  76. BTW the tanks are rolling into the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali.



    The capital of Georgia is Tbilisi,

    Which Russian planes did bomb but probably for the same reason we bombed Baghdad in 1991, or Belgrade when we were fighting to "free" Kosovo....

    To up the pressure on the government to come to terms.

    ReplyDelete
  77. That good enough?

    ReplyDelete
  78. Is what good enough?

    :|

    And for that matter good enough for what?

    ReplyDelete
  79. I didn't discuss "what" happened there 1000 years ago, other than to vaguely refer to it to point out I am familiar with the region.

    Which has NOTHING nothing do with the current situation, but you used to claim knowledge,

    BTW I bet Jerome a Paris still knows MORE then you do.

    He still sees the Georgian gambit as overplayed with enocouragement from Bush though Bush probably didn't know that Saakashvili was going to pull such a boneheaded move.

    Attack a place the Russian have internationally agreed peace keepers in and NOT expect a Russia response?

    ReplyDelete
  80. Later Worf your just arguing in circles.

    Besides this "war" is over Bush and Georgia LOST.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Know Clif, I think the term you're looking for is I am "arguing circles around you".

    ReplyDelete
  82. As for your reference to my statement about Russian tanks rolling into the Georgian capital as we speak, I was simply speaking prophetically, based on whats on CNN right now.

    Check CNN out Clif. You'll see how non agressive Russia is being.

    From the current CNN headline.

    U.S.: Russia trying to topple Georgian government

    ReplyDelete
  83. BTW the "insults" started when you teird a OLD troll technique assign Y statements a position i didn't take, as strawman, then dispose of the WITHOUT actually debating then merits of them.

    I have a large number of fact based articles YOU have yet to refute.

    You tried the cut and paste dismissal,

    You can bury my words clif with your 20 page cut and pastes if you want, but the fact is you are wrong, Georgia is a democracy, and you were wrong to attack me over that.

    Wasn't 20 pages either, but your attempt at the way tallltexan dismissed similar facts was apparent to me.

    ReplyDelete
  84. So ... How about that Lydia Cornell? Beautiful and smart and has such wonderful friends who can talk about issues intelligently and agree to disagree when needed.

    ReplyDelete
  85. clif said...


    BTW I bet Jerome a Paris still knows MORE then you do.


    So what? I imagine theres lots of people who know more than me on lots of subjects.

    Who said he didn't?

    You can't just INVENT positions for people clif, then quote someone that you think refutes the position YOU just INVENTED, and then start insulting someone.

    I never made any opposing views to you, other than to CORRECT you, when you FALSELY claimed Georgia is not a Democracy and began attacking me on it.

    ReplyDelete
  86. clif said...
    BTW the "insults" started when you teird a OLD troll technique assign Y statements a position i didn't take, as strawman, then dispose of the WITHOUT actually debating then merits of them.



    What are you talking about?

    I mean really, what the hell are you talking about?

    ReplyDelete
  87. Well bart I see the president of Iran.

    and YES Russia would like a government more friendly to Moscow then Washington, and since Georgian president attacked people who hold Russian passports and Russian troops who were there as peace keepers they sort of have the RIGHT to defend people who claim Russian citizenship from attacks.


    Bush ET al pushed for selling arms from the US and placing a US military base in a former soviet nion republic,

    Like I said Washington would go apesh*t if Russia tried that in the western hemisphere,

    Oh right that Cuba thingy for the last 50 years.

    And the Nicaragua thingy where a lot of Reagan's people got into trouble for lying to congress about breaking the law.

    But when we do it to them it seems to be OK?

    ReplyDelete
  88. clif said...


    I have a large number of fact based articles YOU have yet to refute.



    Why do I have to refute them???

    Are you really this dense?

    I never claimed to refute ANYTHING you said, other than your ignorant and juvinile attack on me trying to correct me when I referred to Georgia as a democracy, which it is.

    You apparently aren't big enough to admit you were wrong to challenge me on that fact, and have spent the entire night cutting and pasting and debating positions I NEVER TOOK.

    And if I'm wrong, then SHOW US.

    Show us the position of mine that you are refuting by cutting and pasting MY words, showing us the position you claim to be refuting.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Yes, the people of South Ossetia want independence from Georgia, but Russia is leveraging this to put their own forces into the region, and wage war with Georgia, which of course would result in the collapse of Georgian independence should Russian forces succeed.

    this is where our disagreement started.

    because unless YOU have a crystal ball you can't KNOW this,

    we shall see in time.

    I still think Russia is just working for South Ossetia freedom AT THE MOMENT.

    ReplyDelete
  90. You attacked me when I referred to Georgia as a democracy.


    I CORRECTED you.

    Then you started with this tirade of insults and arguments trying to paint a position on me that I never made.

    ReplyDelete
  91. clif said...


    this is where our disagreement started.

    because unless YOU have a crystal ball you can't KNOW this,


    What are you talking about? Where in that statement do I need a "Crystal Ball", and what specifically are you discounting?

    ReplyDelete
  92. At the end of the day, its going to come down to whether or not Russia can pull these regions back under their umbrella, which is precisely what the new rulers want.

    They want the "U.S.S.R" back.


    Another projection, which doesn't currently have much factual basis.

    Putin I think has learned the lessons communist china has taught the planet.

    with out firing a shot, China has the US in a very untenable position, and can crash our economy if they want to stand the strain on theirs.


    Putin KNOWS he controls the largest petroleum production at the moment. so he can use his economic power and doesn't need to roll tanks UNLESS things like attacks on his troops and people who hold Russian passports, which BY international agreement makes them citizens of Russia.......

    ReplyDelete
  93. Here. Here's the statement you just said I need a crystal ball to say.

    clif said...
    Yes, the people of South Ossetia want independence from Georgia, but Russia is leveraging this to put their own forces into the region, and wage war with Georgia, which of course would result in the collapse of Georgian independence should Russian forces succeed.



    I see you highlighted the "of course".

    Ok , so you didn't like the assertiveness of my conclusions?

    Is THAT what you're now saying?

    :|

    Hmm. Can't help notice you don't want to admit you were wrong about challenging me on the Georgian Democracy thingy, but ok. I can deal with this one too.

    ReplyDelete
  94. which of course would result in the collapse

    A projection of FUTURE events?

    ReplyDelete
  95. clif said...
    At the end of the day, its going to come down to whether or not Russia can pull these regions back under their umbrella, which is precisely what the new rulers want.

    They want the "U.S.S.R" back.

    Another projection, which doesn't currently have much factual basis.




    Oh really?


    Let's see what CNN thinks about my "crystal ball"

    U.S.: Russia trying to topple Georgian government

    UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- The United States on Sunday accused Russia of trying to overthrow the government of the former Soviet republic of Georgia




    :|

    Gee... maybe you should try getting one of these Crystal Ball thingy's, huh?

    ReplyDelete
  96. clif said...


    A projection of FUTURE events?


    You mean like you do in here every night?

    You mean like that Clif?

    ReplyDelete
  97. Course, the difference is my "projections" seem to come true more often than yours, huh?

    :D

    Least tonight.

    Read CNN at the United Nations this evening.

    They'll show you my "crystal ball" is more accurate than yours apparently.

    ReplyDelete
  98. From CNN

    At an emergency session of the United Nations' Security Council, the U.S. alleged Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili "must go."

    "This is completely unacceptable and crosses a line," said the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Zalmay Khalilzad, who made the allegation.

    In a crackling exchange of a type rarely seen since the end of the Cold War, Khalilzad asked Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin whether the Russians were seeking "regime change" in Georgia with the military operation they launched Friday.


    ReplyDelete
  99. I don't see the Iraqi Government under Saddam as a democracy.

    I don't see the government under Zimbabwe as a democracy,

    even though both government CLAIM they were voted in by democratic means.

    and the government under Mikheil Saakashvili is at least that corrupt.

    It uses MURDER, terror, torture, to maintain control ...

    But since he is OUR corrupt despot that is OK?

    ReplyDelete


  100. In response, Churkin objected to the disclosure of a confidential phone call between top diplomats and said "regime change" was "an American expression."


    Notice they didn't deny it?

    ReplyDelete
  101. We'll see bart, and if the Russians get what YOU claim they want,

    and if they do, what can we do about it.

    I bet Bush and the neo-cons will chalk it up to well good try at least just like they are doing in Iraq at the moment.

    ReplyDelete
  102. clif said...
    I don't see the Iraqi Government under Saddam as a democracy.



    Well thats fine clif.

    YOU don't see it that way.

    :|

    But out here.... in the real world, we go by whats actually written down somewhere.

    You know...like in UN Charters... and Encyclopedia's and sh$t....

    :|

    And EVERYONE ELSE says Georgia is a democracy.

    So until you get the dictionary to change its definition, and the United Nations to alter its charter... Georgis IS a democracy.

    Whether you think its a good one or not is YOUR debate pal.

    Not mine.

    ReplyDelete
  103. clif said...

    We'll see bart, and if the Russians get what YOU claim they want,



    uhhh.. gee Clif.... don't know how to break this too you but I am not the US government. Nor am I CNN.

    Nor am I the Russian Foreign Minister, who declared THIS EVENING, that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, "MUST GO".


    :|

    Try reading CURRENT events clif before accusing me of "projecting".

    ReplyDelete
  104. And if you'd like to see things through my "crystal ball", try pointing your web browser to www.CNN.com.

    You'll see a whole lot clearer.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Lets see in a couple of days if Russian military units roll OUTSIDE of South Ossetia.

    Or if they stay out and allow the people of Georgia to decide if they want to keep their current president.

    The attack on South Ossetia, has more in common with the Falklands War then any other current dispute between countries and disputed territory.

    If I remember right Argentina lost, then;

    The Argentine loss of the war led to ever-larger protests against the military regime and is credited with giving the final push to drive out the military government that had overthrown Isabel Perón in 1976 and participated in the crimes of the Dirty War. Galtieri was forced to resign and elections were held on 30 October 1983

    The Russians know of the civil unrest against Saakashvili, so they might(yes I am speculating) that the loss in South Ossetia will be enough to topple his government and embolden their allies in Georgia.

    Which would be the realpolitik way of regime change.

    Bush 41 though it would happen in 1991, but Saddam held to power.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Remember the Italians got rid of Mussilini long before the end of WW2, and the fiasco in Vietnam cost Johnson his second term.

    ReplyDelete
  107. The way Chamberlin mishandled the run up to WW2 cost him his office.

    ReplyDelete
  108. The Russians are very good students of history.

    ReplyDelete
  109. and they know what is happening in the internal politics of Georgia.

    ReplyDelete
  110. So their comments at the UN just might be more form consumption at home sort of the way Bush ET Al used Colin Powell in 2002.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Did I mention she was beautiful AND smart?

    ReplyDelete
  112. Ok, as you said, I don't care about what happened years ago.

    We are talking about this evening.

    You've insulted me this evening, accused me of deception, attribute several strawman arguments to me and are now doing all the "speculating" and "projecting" that you accused me of.

    So one more time for the perpetually thickheaded.

    You insulted me for calling Georgia a democracy and claimed it was not.

    You are wrong.

    It is.

    And now you accused me of projecting when I am merely summarizing what I have been reading on CNN this evening.

    CNN is reporting that the Russian Prime Minsiter that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, "MUST GO", and that doesn't sound like they're stopping anytime soon.

    You can believe what you want. And hell, I HOPE you are right, and they will stop at Ossetia.

    But thats not what it looks like this evening.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Typo correction since I know you'll jump on it like a rabid wolf.

    I said

    CNN is reporting that the Russian Prime Minsiter that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, "MUST GO

    And I meant (as I stated repeatedly earlier) the Russian FOREIGN MINISTER.

    Not "prime".

    Foreign.

    Sorry to cheat you out of that one buddy.

    ReplyDelete
  114. So for all your cut and pastes and straw arguments, the fact is you are wrong about Georgia being a democracy.

    You then turned to this ridiculous focus on my making "projections", as if you don't spend every night in here making millions of them about everything from politics to the economy.


    And the worst part is, I wasn't even making projections.

    I was merely summarizing what CNN and the United Nations are reporting this evening.

    Russia is making its intentions clear and accusing me of inventing those intentions is a rotten thing to do.

    ReplyDelete
  115. The Russians know that they can over play their hand, but by remaining inside South Ossetia and claiming they are defending citizens based on the international agreements of holders of a passport are recognized as citizens of that country, they can keep what they gained, and wait for the internal politics of Georgia to work out.


    BTW another republic inside Georgia has shown signs of breaking away;

    Abkhazia;

    is a region in Georgia that is a de facto independent republic with no international recognition.


    Georgia could become the Caucasus version of Yugoslovia.

    It even has another province that has resisted the Georgian attempts to control it;

    Adjara


    is an autonomous republic of Georgia, in the southwestern corner of the country, bordered by Turkey to the south and the eastern end of the Black Sea.

    The Georgian population of Adjara had been generally known as "Muslim Georgians" ....

    ReplyDelete
  116. You'd think you'd have learned by now not to come at me with that crap clif.

    When I'm wrong, I'll say so.

    Apparently thats not a trait you share with me.

    ReplyDelete
  117. The Georgian government and UN can say Georgia is a democracy, but I bet the people of Georgia disagree as much as the people of Iraq disagreed under Saddam when he claimed to be a democracy.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Stick to the democracy rant and dismiss the rest, have a nice night.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Clif projected...


    The Russians know that they can over play their hand, but by remaining inside South Ossetia and claiming they are defending citizens based on the international agreements of holders of a passport are recognized as citizens of that country, they can keep what they gained, and wait for the internal politics of Georgia to work out.


    Hmmm.

    Interesting projection.

    Why is it again you can "project" but I cannot?

    ReplyDelete
  120. As for the democracy "rant", it was you I believe who were "ranting" about the country not being a democracy there cheif.

    :|

    I merely correctly labeled it as one when you started ranting.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Here. Lets look at another example of your dyslexic rhetoric.


    clif said... (QUOTING BARTLEBEE)
    At the end of the day, its going to come down to whether or not Russia can pull these regions back under their umbrella, which is precisely what the new rulers want.

    They want the "U.S.S.R" back.
    (END QUOTE)

    Another projection, which doesn't currently have much factual basis.



    So clif says that I am making a "projection" and that projection is wrong.

    Yet I wasn't making a "projection", but in fact was summarzing from CNN's report on tonights Emergency Session of the United Nations Security Council.

    So my merely repeating what CNN is reporting directly from and Emergency UN Security Council session is what Clif calls "projecting".

    :|

    And he calls me the ranting one.

    ReplyDelete
  122. clif said...
    The Georgian government and UN can say Georgia is a democracy, but I bet the people of Georgia disagree as much as the people of Iraq disagreed under Saddam when he claimed to be a democracy.



    I'm sorry Clif that the United Nations doesn't agree with you.

    I am sorry that US Government or the Georgian Government, doesn't agree with you.

    I am sorry the Encylopedia's of the world do not agree with you.

    I am sorry the Cartographers of the world do not agree with you.

    I'm sorry our Schools, and Universities do not agree with you.

    :|

    But this isn't "baby school".

    In the real world, for you to attack me for calling a country by its OFFICAL DESIGNATION, is laughable.

    Georgia IS a democracy.


    look it up skippy.

    ReplyDelete
  123. And all your ranting otherwise won't change that fact.

    Whether or not its a good one, is a topic of another debate.

    Because I never stipulated one way or the other to that.

    That was YOUR strawman, one that you're apparently not mature enough to own up to.

    ReplyDelete
  124. FROM WIKIPEDIA

    Georgia is a representative democracy

    :|

    Have a nice night.

    ReplyDelete
  125. FROM CNN

    CURRENT:

    Russia sent tanks to South Ossetia on Friday, saying it wanted to protect its peacekeepers posted there following cease-fires in years past.

    By Sunday the conflict was raging in other parts of Georgia as well, including another breakaway area, Abkhazia, located in northwestern Georgia.


    Yea, Clif, they're just in South Ossetia.

    Try reading up on whats happening NOW, before attacking me next time.

    ReplyDelete
  126. A post by Laughing_Wolf at Blackfive.

    Probably a better take on the events occurring in Georgia than you're gonna get anywhere else.

    No, It's Not Good At All
    Posted By Laughing_Wolf

    The last couple of weeks have been intense, and the hours long, so think of what follows as something of a day journal note a la the Original Blog. I know that my lack of time is a problem for some, but this is some food for thought that I think needs to be out there as a follow-up to COB6's posts here and here, even though I don't have the time to flesh it out as I would like. For those that want or need to know, I used to write about the Soviet Union -- in particular it's space-related activities -- and did as my Master's thesis a tome entitled The Soviet Watchers: A Directory of Western Observers of Soviet Space Efforts. That said, here are the day notes on why I think the invasion of Georgia is not good at all. Especially with news this morning that Georgia has formally declared a state of war to exist, and that the Russians appear to have sortied portions or all of its Black Sea fleet (possibly aiming at Abkhazia) and claim to now control the capital of South Ossetia. Note also the Clinton-era pols rushing to declare Georgia dead as a potential NATO member and not worthy of much support...

    Even though Georgia was a part of Russia and then the Soviet Union, there has always been a bit of friction there. Under Russia, it was seen as a buffer against non-Christians and other threats. Under the Soviet Union, it still served that role but was also open to a larger exploitation -- which has helped create part of the situation now faced. Even the ghost of Stalin plays into this, as he was not Russian but a Georgia boy (yee-haw) who outmaneuvered both the Moscow and St. Petersburg factions to take control. That is something neither faction has ever forgotten, and in some ways never forgiven.

    It is worth noting that Putin, who is in charge no matter what title he currently holds, is of the St. Petersburg faction, and is the first to come back to leadership from said faction in quite a while. Interestingly, what he is doing right now in Georgia is more in the Moscow style, but with some interesting fillips that are St. Petersburg in origin, IMO.

    This is nothing less than a direct challenge to the U.S. and an effort to break the Georgian government so as to put back into power the pro-Russia group (or even under direct control). The surface cause is one that has been built up over the last several years, with Russia pushing as hard as it could get away with internationally to put in "peacekeepers" openly and arm/support the rebels not terribly clandestinely. There have been several previous attempts to spark a reaction from Georgia, including direct incursions into Georgian territory, incursions into Georgian airspace, and even attacks on Georgian aircraft and other assets. Behind it lies several factors.

    First, there is the fact that Russia wants to control the border states just as it did before. They have not been shy about it in some of the other states, but Georgia and Ukraine both had something the others didn't: resources. The poorer countries with no major resources, lack of communications (and interest in them by the world community), and no major prospects were fairly easy to control. Georgia and Ukraine, however, have a variety of other resources and have more developed relations with the rest of the world. That said, Russia tried very openly and even ham-handedly to control them and to rig elections so that the Russian-controlled factions would win. They need those states as a buffer, and have not taken the failures there with anything approaching good grace.

    Second, there are some strategic resources at play, including oil. Remember that Georgia was a major part of the old Silk Road, which interestingly enough today could almost be thought of as the jihad road given that the hot-spots of jihad from western China to eastern Europe follow this route. Trade has been a part of Georgia not for centuries, but easily a millennia or three. A lot of oil and natural gas flow through Georgia, including a good bit of Russian -- and Georgia hasn't been as easy to blackmail as Europe in this regard. Energy, minerals, food, trade -- Russia really, really wants control again.

    Third, Georgia has not just turned away from Moscow, it has openly embraced the West and minor things like free-market capitalism, which is opening doors even wider for concepts of individual liberty, freedom, etc. This is an anathema on its own, but the thought of having that message seen by the restive provinces nearby is enough to give any of the powers/power factions in Moscow absolute conniptions.

    Fourth, that embracing of the West has meant an embracing of Western (primarily American) military thought and equipment. It has meant an effort to join NATO, that Putin expended considerable effort and resources to defeat. Even without being able to join, Georgia has continued to work to integrate its forces into being able to work with NATO troops and equipment (meaning U. S. forces) and has, I believe, openly indicated its willingness to work on future systems and development -- including missile defense.

    Fifth, despite its efforts to upgrade and improve its forces, the fact that Georgia has been unable to deal with the Pankisi Gorge is more than a major irritant to Moscow. The Gorge is haven to groups that have dealt Russia multiple defeats and bloody noses in Chechnya and has resisted Russian, Georgian, and purportedly other efforts to deal with it. The additional problem, in Moscow's eyes, is that Georgia is reaching a point where it might could deal with it -- which means it also could deal with Russia on an equal or even superior footing militarily and diplomatically. Russia wants very much to deal decisively with the Gorge, but having anyone else do it is extremely problematic. The current situation works for them, in that it gives them leverage on the Georgian government and, if they do move in, a claim on Georgian territory. Georgia knows this very well, which is why they have never given permission for Russia to move in and deal with it. Break the Georgian military, break the problem..

    Sixth, this is also a semi-indirect attack against the United States and its alliances. Note multiple statements from Medvedev and Lavrov aimed at those who have trained/armed/encouraged Georgia. Not only is it in part a preemptive move against future missile-defense are related activities, it is a direct move against current missile defense via the Czech Republic and other eastern European countries. Russia has already stated that it would view any such as an act of aggression and that a military response was likely. Part of what is being done now is to show the Czech's and others that being an ally doesn't mean the U.S. really will defend you. If we don't back our ally against a direct military attack here, the lesson is clearly made that the U.S. will not do anything about an attack on their territory. It could also be the start of an effort to make the case that attacking our missile defense in another country is not really an attack on us, but a justifiable action (in the eyes of the U.N., certain so-called international courts, and in particular the European Union courts and ministries). Yet, if we do aid our ally, particularly if we do so strongly, it raises the spectre of a direct conflict between the U.S. and Russia, not to mention jeopardizing any number of ongoing efforts. It even raises the possibility (and I have little doubt that this point is already being raised by Moscow) of Russia reducing or even cutting off gas and oil to Europe for any number of excuses. The EU member states would, I fear, not even hesitate before throwing Georgia -- and even the US -- to the bear, as it were.

    Seventh, I think Russia is very well aware that this would also have a strong negative effect on the War on Terror. Destabilizing Georgia will create the potential for a strong and even prolonged pulse of people and supplies along the "Jihad Road" headed both East and West. That this would also tend to cause destabilization in western China as well as in the Balkans works well for Russia. It allows them to regain or seize control of sections of the Balkans, and block moves by the U.S. and parts of Europe to bring order and nurture some emerging democracies. It also causes problems for current ally and long-term rival China. Russia has never mistaken short-term advantage via working with China for anything other than what it is, and if they can weaken or hurt China even as they use China against the U.S., all the better. Final thought, if you break up the alliances, much of what we have done and are working on will fail. It is not inconceivable that Russia may also be looking long term at even further expansion.

    Also, if you think that the timing of this such that all major world leaders are in China for the Olympics is a coincidence, then I have some land I would like to sell you. I would very much love to know what is being openly and quietly said in Beijing right now, as I am just about willing to bet cash money that the Chinese are backing the Russian play. China has its own reasons to want this, including Taiwan. Fail to back an ally, bad enough. Cut and run, and the world-wide results would be catastrophic.

    Those of us who used to monitor the Soviet Union have seen some of this coming for a while. The open events, such as the murder of Anna Politkovskaya was a clear indication that the Soviet-era methods were back in play, while the nasty and showy murder of Alexander Litvinenko made points lost on no one paying attention. These are two of the best known events, but many more have died, disappeared, etc. over the last few years who were even a minor threat to Putin and those working with him. They are willing and able to play for keeps, and I think they will be more than willing to escalate things in Georgia to levels we have not seen in several decades.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Seems to me to be a reasonable assessment, and not particularly politically biased.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Voltron said..

    Those of us who used to monitor the Soviet Union have seen some of this coming for a while

    Right.

    Particularly considering that the Bush Administration has paved the way for them for offensive "regime change".

    Guess if we didn't want to deal with this sort of stuff, we shouldn't have went around starting it, ay?

    ReplyDelete
  129. I preached endlessly in 2005 about the new Russo\Sino alliance and how they were forming it, and to what end.

    I also predicted repeatedly that before Bush was out of office, Putin would test his mettle.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Did you go to public school volt?

    I ask, because you don't seem to have learned the lesson, that if you go around picking on the little kids, that sooner or later the big kids are going to want to try you out.

    Just to put you in your place.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Voltron didn't say it, Laughing_Wolf did.

    And if you happen to read the whole thing, it seems like as good a take on the situation as any I've read here or elsewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  132. The fact is as we speak tonight, the fightings raging in Northern Georgia, as Russian troops prepare to overthrow an ally to the United States, effectively slapping us with a highly visible "gauntlet" if you will.

    We bit off more than we could chew on their continent, and now they're calling us out.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Voltron said...

    Voltron didn't say it, Laughing_Wolf did.


    I was merely quoting your post. The "Voltron said..." part comes with it nimrod.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Voltron said...


    And if you happen to read the whole thing, it seems like as good a take on the situation as any I've read here or elsewhere.


    I don't have time to read all your cut and pastes.

    I'll read YOUR words, and "EXCERPTS" from articles in context if you want, but unless I feel that a significant point needs to be examined I don't read the 20 page cut and pastes of OTHER PEOPLES WORDS you and clif like to post.

    I prefer to hear what YOU have to say.

    I can google on my own. (:D Pun not intended)

    ReplyDelete
  135. Putin is calling us out tonight, as I always said he would if we didn't back out quietly from Iraq.

    I warned and warned and warned of this very scenario. Not specifically in Georgia mind you, (I figured they'd go straight to the Iranian border) but I predicted Russia would effectively call us out, which they are doing tonight.

    The US claims it supports its allies against military invasions.

    Georgia is our ally.

    Russia is invading Georgia as we speak. They are calling out Bush, to see if he really is the warrior he claims to be.

    It's a glove across the face.

    :|

    Pistol's at dawn.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Well Worf, I don't claim to be a student of the area, so MY words would be ill informed and useless.

    It seemed to be a topic of discussion tonight, and I found his post illuminating.

    If you were truly looking for an explanation that encompasses all that you and Clif were discussing this seems to put it all together.

    Hell I personally don't care if you read it or not. If not, it's your loss. There's probably some stuff there you could throw at me as a brickbat.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Voltron said...

    Well Worf, I don't claim to be a student of the area, so MY words would be ill informed and useless.


    :|

    That's never stopped you before.

    ReplyDelete
  138. AND what's happening in Georgia is probably more of a response to putting missle interceptors in the Chezk republic than it is Iraq.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Voltron said...

    AND what's happening in Georgia is probably more of a response to putting missle interceptors in the Chezk republic than it is Iraq.


    No.

    What you are describing is a "catalyst".


    Everythings about Iraq and Afghanistan. Putins been looking for an opportunity ever since.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anyway, I was just watching the tete 'a tete and thought I would give you some food for thought.

    I can see you're not hungry, so ciao for now. (pun intended)...LOL

    ReplyDelete
  141. Voltron said...
    thought I would give you some food for thought.

    I can see you're not hungry


    No, I've eaten enough of your bullshit for a while.

    But anytime you want to actually try intelligent conversation where you actually.. well, you know...type some words and such... let me know.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Last post tonight and then I'm out of here...

    That post was one of the most encompassing and informative explanations I've read so far.

    IF you had wanted to discuss the points he made, we MIGHT have had some "intelligent conversation".

    The fact that you don't leads me to believe "intelligent conversation" is the farthest thing from your mind.

    So as Paul Harvey likes to say, "Good day".

    ReplyDelete
  143. Things might have just gotten interesting;

    В Южной Осетии взят в плен американский наемник

    translation;


    In South Ossetia captured American mercenary

    В Южной Осетии захвачена в плен группа грузинских подрывников, среди которых находится гражданин США, афроамериканец. Об этом сообщает "Осетинское радио".

    translation;

    In South Ossetia captured Georgian group suicide, which is U.S. citizen, African American. It is reported "Osetinskoe radio."

    Группа задержана в районе поселка Зар, который находится на "дороге жизни" - Зарской дороге.

    The group arrested in the vicinity of the village of Zar, who is on the "road of life" - Zarskoy road.

    Предполагается, что гражданин США - один из инструкторов НАТО. В данный момент он переправлен во Владикавказ для выяснения всех обстоятельств его нахождения на территории Республики Южная Осетия.

    It is anticipated that U.S. citizen - one of NATO instructors. At this time, he transferred to Vladikavkaz to ascertain all the circumstances of his stay in the territory of the Republic of South Ossetia.

    Как отмечает "Росбалт", ранее южноосетинский полпред в РФ Дмитрий Медоев уже сообщал, что среди трупов в Цхинвали было обнаружено несколько тел темнокожих людей, воевавших на стороне Грузии.

    As Rosbalt "previously полпред South Ossetia in the Russian Federation Dmitry Medoev has already reported that among the corpses in Tskhinvali was found several bodies of black people who fought on the side of Georgia.

    If my use of google translation is correct.

    and if it is we have an American in South Ossetia captured by the Russians .........

    not the best of thing at this time.

    TW Bart they seem to be spiraling down the rhetoric and military ops;

    Россия и Грузия согласились не использовать военную авиацию

    Russia and Georgia have agreed not to use military aircraft

    ТБИЛИСИ, 11 августа. В ходе переговоров между российскими миротворцами и грузинской стороной было достигнуто соглашение о недопустимости применения авиации в зоне конфликта. В переговорах принимали участие командующий миротворческими силами Сергей Чабан и губернатор Мегрелии – Верхней Сванетии Заза Горозиа, передает ИА «Новости-Грузия».

    TBILISI, August 11. During the talks between Russian peacekeepers and Georgian side agreement was reached on the inadmissibility of the use of aircraft in the conflict zone. Negotiations have participated peacekeeping forces commander Sergei Chaban and the Governor Megrelii - Upper Svaneti Zaza Gorozia, IA "News-Georgia".

    ReplyDelete
  144. And I think the author of volts article is this guy;

    Jerry Pournelle

    a science fiction writer none the less.

    If you read the beginning of his black five article he references the blog written by Jerry Pournelle in a way as his own.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Voltron said...

    IF you had wanted to discuss the points he made, we MIGHT have had some "intelligent conversation".



    Well if you had addressed some specific points he made, then I could have discussed them with you.

    But since you didn't, and instead just lazily tossed it out there waiting for someone else to formulate a coherent point of discussion, I didn't see the necessity.

    I prefer debates with people who can formulate their own positions, instead of those who just lazily toss out other peoples words, and wait for everyone else to do the work.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Voltron said...


    The fact that you don't leads me to believe "intelligent conversation" is the farthest thing from your mind.


    It is when I see someone too lazy to actually come up with an intelligent thought or position and instead just tosses out some article they found online that they hope says something intelligent in it, hoping the other guy will actually be able to read and comment on it.

    ReplyDelete
  147. And if YOU had actually read your own article, you'd have some point or facet of it included with it, instead of just tossing it out there and expecting everyone else to do your work for you.

    ReplyDelete
  148. "The Laughing Wolf is the punditry and editorial site of writer, photographer, and raconteur C. Blake Powers. It is independent in politics and covers topics including journalism, military, weapons, preparedness, space, science, cooking, food and wine, product reviews, and even spirituality."

    ReplyDelete
  149. Volts article is refried old cold war themes updated to the current situation, and little more.

    Especially the schizophrenic parts where he claims the Chinese are financially backing this play by the Russians which will result in part where It also causes problems for current ally and long-term rival China.

    So according to him China is financing against their own self interest?

    Sound about par for a science fiction writer ......

    ReplyDelete
  150. http://www.laughingwolf.net/

    ReplyDelete
  151. Voltron said...
    "The Laughing Wolf is the punditry and editorial site of writer, photographer, and raconteur C. Blake Powers. It is independent in politics and covers topics including journalism, military, weapons, preparedness, space, science, cooking, food and wine, product reviews, and even spirituality."


    Once more, if you're just going to lazily toss out OTHER PEOPLES WORDS without your own detailing the point you are trying to make, then no ones going to start arguing the strawmen you're tying to set them up for.

    You do it that way, so when you get your clock cleaned you can say, "well the article said that, not me".

    When your balls drop again and you can forumlate a coherent thought, let me know.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Thanks Volt;

    About C. Blake Powers
    Home


    C. Blake Powers' award winning career spans more than two decades of progressive experience in communications, marketing, and journalism. In his most recent staff position, he served as Director of Outreach for NASA’s Space Product Development Program, where he was responsible for developing and implementing strategic and tactical outreach plans and products. To do this, he created an integrated outreach program for NASA and its Commercial Space Centers that incorporated a WWW presence, print materials, multimedia presentations, and trade show displays.


    As a freelance writer, his articles and/or photographs have appeared in publications ranging from weekly papers to internationally distributed magazines and journals, as well as on-line publications such as Discovery.com. He has conducted live broadcasts of Space Shuttle launches, conducted a monthly science radio show for international station KNLS, and has experience with both radio and television production. He has written articles and done consulting work based on his analysis of foreign science and technology. He has served a photographic internship with Playboy magazine and spoken on topics including writing, foreign space programs, space war, technology, and space commercialization, to groups of up to several hundred persons.


    Powers was inducted into Kappa Tau Alpha, the journalism scholastic honor society, in 1990; was elected to active membership in the New York Academy of Sciences in 1989; was a 1988-1989 Bickle Scholar at the University of Tennessee; earned the Space Academy's Right Stuff award in 1986; joined the National Association of Science Writers in 1986; and, was awarded second place in the professional photojournalism category of the 1982 Sigma Delta Chi statewide exhibion at Auburn University. He earned the Eagle Scout award with Silver and Bronze Palms, the God and Country award and the 50 Miler award, and was elected to the Order of the Arrow in the Boy Scouts of America.


    A lot of Science a little fiction, and NO direct link to military strategy history or experience in those pursuits however like I said;

    Volts article is refried old cold war themes updated to the current situation, and little more.

    ReplyDelete
  153. In the meantime, be advised for the umpteenth time, that I do not debate articles.

    I debate people.

    :|

    When you locate one let me know.

    ReplyDelete
  154. "It also causes problems for current ally and long-term rival China. Russia has never mistaken short-term advantage via working with China for anything other than what it is, and if they can weaken or hurt China even as they use China against the U.S., all the better."

    AND

    "I am just about willing to bet cash money that the Chinese are backing the Russian play. China has its own reasons to want this, including Taiwan."


    Just where do you read that China is "financially backing" anything "against their own self interests"????

    ReplyDelete
  155. Chinese are backing the Russian play.

    I don't see chicom troops there do you?

    ReplyDelete
  156. And Worf?

    It wasn't MY argument. You guys were the ones talking about it. I just posted some info for you.

    You don't have to do any "work" for me, I don't particularly care.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Clif doesn't seem to mind however.

    Maybe he can help you.

    I however do not debate articles that the commenter just lazily tosses out without ever forumlating a position of his own about them.

    Doing so would be debating myself, something you're clearly better at than I.

    When you can actually "formulate" a position... with ...you know...words and such... let me know.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Clif said "So according to him China is financing against their own self interest?

    Sound about par for a science fiction writer ......"


    LOL........Well they kinda been doing that for a while now by financing our deficits.........seriously though i see the point you were trying to make.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Voltron said...


    It wasn't MY argument. You guys were the ones talking about it. I just posted some info for you.

    You don't have to do any "work" for me, I don't particularly care.


    Yea, you just lazily tossed it out hoping to draw someone into something you could argue.

    Because you're not intelligent enough yourself to actually offer any real input.

    ReplyDelete
  160. But you resting your argument about a very complex situation in the caucus region on some guy who's resume says;

    C. Blake Powers' award winning career spans more than two decades of progressive experience in communications, marketing, and journalism.

    But no foreign policy or military strategy or academic experience, well he just read too many cold war articles and is tryin' to fit the frame to this situation.

    Argue away son, his article is mostly speculation and inference with NOT factual back up.

    ReplyDelete
  161. What you live to post it seems.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Voltron said...

    You don't have to do any "work" for me,


    I wouldn't lose any sleep on that one if I were you.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Try reading something from somebody with a little more experience then they were an E-7 in ground ops, but have nothing above battalion experience.

    Or a communication, journalism-marketing guru ....

    ReplyDelete
  164. at least the person I posted about has REAL World experience in the region, and worked in the oil industry ...

    here is Jerome a Paris own basis for his articles;

    Just as a bit of background, let me state here for the record that I wrote my PhD on the independence of Ukraine, and have thus studied how Russia behaves with its neighbors rather intensively. Following that, I worked for several years financing oil&gas projects in Russia and the Caspian; in particular, I worked on the financing of the BTC pipeline that goes from Azerbaijan to Turkey via Georgia (I wrote about it on DailyKos 3 years ago). Oil companies don't need the money: what they want is for other parties like banks to share the political risks associated with their projects. Which means that in turn, the job of a banker working on these projects is to understand those political risks. And it is quite obvious that the relationship between Russia and the Caucasus countries, including Georgia, was at the heart of my work.

    He has worked on the very pipeline which goes thru the region and has studied Russia post USSR collapse NOT an 20th century view of the planet.

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  165. Yours was a journalist and communications expert about marketing.

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  166. But volt continue to pretend that the marketing morons of the right wing have all the answers.

    Even though they have screwed up so much for so long the GOP is almost a laughing stock of the planet let alone the country.

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  167. I'll keep that in mind for future reference Worf...

    note to self,

    when Worf is expounding on something don't try to give him any more information to use. He can only handle so much at one time....


    ALSO,

    when liberals are arguing don't give them a wider viewpoint that backs up their arguments for them.

    They don't appreciate it and will often attack you for confusing them.

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  168. Well I read your article Volt..............it seems like typical Right wing Cold warrior bravado with a grain or two of truth mixed in................Jerome Paris's aricle seems much more on point, insightful and accurate.

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  169. Bottom line Russia went in there for ALOT of strategic reasons.........because of the Neo Cons idiocy............If this were a chess game, Russia is playing like a master and Bush and the Neo Cons are playing like a cocky 8 year old punk.

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  170. I still see Russia using the people of South Ossetia to undercut a rabid pro-bush politico, who hasn't done very well by his own people and according to some is at least as corrupt as Saddam was;

    things like this scandal

    and the way he treated his former Minister of defense

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  171. Let Bartlebee be clear here, so there is no confusion.

    My position, is the same its been since we invaded Iraq in 2003 and I've been posting on it since 2005 when I first came in here.

    And that position is that if we invaded Iraq, (or won't leave) that sooner or later, before Bush's term is out, that Russia, and possibly China, would pull something like this and call the US out.

    People get wrapped up in here in the day to day incidents and never, ever look at the big picture. The 40,000 foot view so to speak. Instead they focus on individual incidents, simple "catalysts" without ever putting the puzzle together.

    Its why so many people who go to the hospital for cancer and such end up dying. Because the doctors will always get you to focus on the SYMPTOMS, and not the real, underlying cause.

    The fact here is we went to war, against Russia's will in 2003 in their back yard, thumbing our nose at them as we went.

    And I predicted back then that before Bush leaves office Russia was going to hit back for that move, and call us out onto the battlefield to see what we've really got under the hood.

    And thats exactly what they're doing now, and as I predicted back then, using our invasion of Iraq to qualify their actions.

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  172. Mike the cold warriors of the right lead by Bush are still playing one dimensional checkers, which the Chinese and Russians are playing three dimensional chess.

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  173. Hey Volt you might get your "dream team" of McSame and Willard Romney.........you gonna celebrate?????

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  174. In other words we're all on the same page for the most part, except I am focusing on the bigger picture, not the catalysts.

    The catalysts are important to discuss for sure, but the underlying reasons are more important, because its our presence in Iraq that is making the Russian invasion of Georgia possible.

    They are not just in South Ossetia as clif implied earlier, but they are as we speak, in Northern Georgia, doing fierce battle.

    And I don't think they plan on stopping soon.

    After all, what possible grounds could we declare for calling for a halt to their offensive operations?

    After what we've done?

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  175. They always want to go back to the "golden era" the 1950's world view, which hasn't worked since the post-Cuban missile era crisis at least, and definitely the post Vietnam era, since the rest of the planet see us and the Russians with the same eye, a possibly violent aggressor who is after their own gains, and aren't above regime change or worse if they think they can get away with it.

    In the Georgia case the Russians look to be playing for another regime change based on Georgians losing the current conflict ie the Falklands aftermath for Argentina.

    After all the US actor got his rise when the old Soviet Foreign Minister, Eduard Shevardnadze, over played his hand as president of Georgia.

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  176. Christ you guys are thick.

    The guys politically independent, has decades of PROGRESSIVE experience in communications, marketing, and journalism.

    He wrote an article which pretty much BACKS UP everything your talking about in at least SEVEN different ways, (some of which YOU hadn't even thought of yet) and I get this crap:

    "typical Right wing Cold warrior bravado"

    "continue to pretend that the marketing morons of the right wing have all the answers."



    Remind me NOT to help when you're pontificating OK?

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  177. Bart, I see the Russians playing for a regime change by the voters of Georgia after Bush's man gets his ass handed to him by the Russian military.

    a reverse rose revolution if you will,

    and that would hand Putin a victory with out the very bad press of illegal invasion of all of Georgia and long term occupation.

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  178. Remind me NOT to help when you're pontificating OK?

    Yea volt .... just go back to plagiarizing on your echo chamber

    it is what you do best.

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  179. I think Russia is tactically pushing back at the Neo Cons for many reasons............For the missile defense and bases near their borders, for Iraq and belicose threats to attack Iran, the desire to take control of a key pipeline that could make Europe and Japan think twice about siding against Russia on key issues, and last but certainly not least the pompous belicose arrogance of the Neo Cons............that said I dont think Russia expects or wants to egg us on to a direct confrontation with them, why should they when they can sit back and snicker and laugh as we squander our limited resources and defeat ourselves much as they did in Afghanistan in the 1980's.............The Neo Con fools didnt learn a dam thing from history they still have a decades outdated Cold war Mentality.

    The way I see things Russia and China hold most of the cards economicly and strategically with the surplus they have and the resources they control they can destroy our economy at any time they choose by dumping the dollar, and by ceasaeing to fund our deficits, as well as by taking a limited amount of oil off the market...........byut they are smart they want to control MORE cards till they plasy their hand and this move was about gaining more cards..........they want to poke the Neo Cons in the eye, make them look impotent and gain control of a key strategic pipeline that gives them MORE clout with Europe and Japan who desperately NEED their oil and natural gas, as well as further humilates the Neo cons and thwarts their grandiose plans for world domination by controlling much of the worlds energy.

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  180. Well Volt I would have a little more faith if he hadn't relied on so many COLD WAR themes in his article, and of course if his audience wasn't made up of guys who see everything thru the kool-aid of WW2 appeasement and cold war ideology.

    The planet is much more complex then the cold war split, but you and those you quote always seem to fail to grasp that fact.

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  181. Or that Russia has as much right to attempt to control their back yard as we do trying to control Cuba or Venezuela.

    I don't agree with either but the right seem to think we are right for doing it but Russia is wrong.

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  182. clif said...

    a reverse rose revolution if you will,


    Well, I hope you're right. But the rose revolution was peaceful, and what we're seeing tonight is anything but.

    If it changes, then I'll be thrilled along with you. But right now it looks like they're doing what I was afraid they'd do ever since we invaded Iraq.

    Right now it looks like they are planning on moving all the way in, and effectively calling Bush out.

    Its a lose lose situation for Bush.

    If he goes in, then we're facing war with Russia.

    If he doesn't, then he's guilty of not keeping our pledge of support for our allies and potential future allies will never trust us again.

    I really hope you are correct but tonight, the events are not following your prediction.

    They're following mine.

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  183. Bart it was "peaceful" from the outside, not so much if you lived inside Georgia.

    as many of Eduard Shevardnadze's former compatriots found out the hard way.

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  184. Clif, the reason Voltron tossed out that article without taking a position, is because he doesn't "know" what his position is yet.

    It hasn't been given to him yet.

    The neocons are not sure which way to go here. They know if they come down too hard on Russia for this the parallels of our invasion of Iraq will be too striking on the international stage, and the US could very well paint itself into a corner here if we come out too strong.

    On the other hand if they do nothing, they'll be called weak for not backing up all that tough talk regarding US Allies.

    So Voltron, not knowing which way the neocon wind is going to be blowing just tosses out articles someone else wrote to see what we say about them.

    He has no position yet because no one has told him what to think.

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  185. "If he goes in, then we're facing war with Russia.

    If he doesn't, then he's guilty of not keeping our pledge of support for our allies and potential future allies will never trust us again."


    If only someone had listened to Patton eh Worf?

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  186. Bart the events are different according to which media outlet you are reading.

    CNN doesn't have a very good track record about the run up to the War in Iraq, it basically parroted the bush neo-con line there also. It wasn't as bad a faux noise, but closer then they like to admit now a days.

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  187. Oh I HAVE a position Worf.

    Back our allies.

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  188. See? He proves my point.

    He cannot formulate a valid position because he hasn't gotten his talking points for the week. So he tosses out vague references to one of a possible 1000 quotes made by General George S Patton, to see if anyone bites.

    He doesn't have a position, because no ones given it to him yet.

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  189. Voltron said...
    Oh I HAVE a position Worf.

    Back our allies.



    Ahh.. the thing itself speaks.

    At last.

    :|

    And what pray tell does "backing our allies" constitute?

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  190. Only "vague" to you Worf.

    Exactly what did Patton advocate regarding Russia? What was it that got him called home?


    Georgia is an ally. They were fighting along side us in Iraq.
    We have people in Georgia now that may have been taken prisoner.

    We back Georgia militarily.

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  191. clif said...
    Bart the events are different according to which media outlet you are reading.

    CNN doesn't have a very good track record about the run up to the War in Iraq, it basically parroted the bush neo-con line there also. It


    Well I'm seeing the same stories all over. In fact on my Yahoo home page its the headline.

    And while I do concur with you that news when it comes to war is to be taken with a grain of salt, the fact is the news is coming right out of the United Nation press corp, so I'm not so sure this is bogus.

    Maybe, but its too easy to confirm the fighting in northern provinces in Georgia.

    I once again applaud your optomisim and hope and pray you're correct.

    But right now it's looking like Russia is doing exactly what I predicted they'd do.

    I KNEW they'd pull this sh$t. I wrote ad nauseum about it.

    So you're going to have to better than suggesting its a bogus story. I hope you're right, but the facts seem to indicate otherwise.

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  192. Voltron said...
    Only "vague" to you Worf.

    Exactly what did Patton advocate regarding Russia? What was it that got him called home?



    Then why didn't you reference those words?

    Why not even now?

    :|

    I know why.

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  193. Of course he wants war..........he just wants somelse to actually go fight the war..........i do have to say it will be interesting if Bush and the Neo Cons spin this like its a virtue not getting involved and leave all the minions out on an island looking stupid............silly me that crowd ALWAYS looks stupid.......must be a preequiste of being a Neo Con.

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  194. Voltron said...


    Georgia is an ally. They were fighting along side us in Iraq.
    We have people in Georgia now that may have been taken prisoner.

    We back Georgia militarily.


    Ok Cornwallace, lets get you pinned down here. On the record.

    You're advocating open warfare with Russia?

    Is that correct General?

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  195. We should have dealt with Russia while we had the military there to do it with.

    And we wouldn't be having problems like this one now.

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  196. Lets get you on record Volt.

    No references, quotes, other peoples words, etc.

    Do YOU, Captian Voltron, Minster of Offense and Defender of the Faith, support open warfare with Russia to halt the Russian advance into Georgia?

    :|

    Thats a yes or no question.

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  197. I don't know if it would get to that. They surely don't want that any more than we do.
    If we look like we're going to they'd probably blink.

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  198. Voltron said...
    We should have dealt with Russia while we had the military there to do it with.

    And we wouldn't be having problems like this one now.



    :|

    Amazing. You actually think after fighting their way to Berlin, and with Japan still occupying the Phillipines, we should have turned on our Russian allies and fought our way to Moscow?

    Something the German military in all its early might, could not do?

    :|

    Yea, you're a real military genius.

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  199. I advocate playing that part until they back down.

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