Monday, July 09, 2007

WHEN TORTURE IS OUTLAWED...

I was reading comments in an online blog recently and I came across a comment by a conservative commenter in a thread about the 50 Presidential Scholar children who handed Bush a letter asking him to stop torturing. The comment was as follows.

When torture is outlawed, only outlaws will use torture!

We all have seen this quote before. Its a favorite of the RNC and the NRA for defending gun ownership rights and bumperstickers bearing these words adorn pickups throughout the south. But what kind of logic really exists in that tired slogan, particularly when applied to torture? That slogan leaves many questions, as does the act of torture itself.

For example, by that exact same logic, why bother to outlaw raping children?

After all, if raping children is outlawed, only outlaws will rape children.

Or why bother outlawing bank robbery?

After all, if robbing banks is outlawed, only outlaws will rob banks.

And why bother outlawing car jacking?

After all, if car jacking is outlawed, only outlaws will jack cars.

Or perhaps is it possible, just possible, that there are some moral absolutes? Could it be things like, raping children and beating pregnant women with tire irons, and torturing our fellow man, are just morally wrong, under any circumstances?

I’m fully aware of the old tired RNC argument that “what if someone had information that would save 10,000 lives from being killed, is torture worth it then?”. Well, in the same vein I ask, what if that same person had information that would save 10,000 lives from being killed, and the terrorist wouldn’t break under torture, but he offers to provide it if you let him rape a 6 year old girl.
Would you do that?
Would it be “worth it”, to let a 6 year old girl be raped mercilessly while you watch, so that 10,000 Americans could keep from dying today, instead of sometime down the road? And if so I ask, what kind of people are these 10,000, who would be ok with living longer if a 6 year old girl had to be raped to do it? What sort of person would be ok living under those circumstances?

Are such lives worthy of being spared? And if so, is the guy your torturing the right guy?

Is he a terrorist or an innocent college student with the same name?

Will he tell you the truth, or just tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear that will make him stop hurting you?

Will the information he has be valid, or will he be missing a peice of the puzzle?

Will you be competent and capable enough to stop it even if he does give you correct information, or will the event play out before your impotent eyes?

Is torturing helpless human beings the only way Americans can survive now?

Is tortuing helpless human beings what Americans are about?
50 Presidential Scholars who met with Mr Bush as a reward for their scholastic acheivements, asked and answered these questions for Mr Bush last week. He didn't get it.

How we, as a country answer these questions, will determine who we are, and more importantly, who we are not.

285 comments:

  1. The repugs are the party of torture, cronnyism, unequal justice and spying on citizens.

    I was watching a show yesterday that compared the Democratic debate to the repug debate..........to quickly summarize...........the Democrats were discussing national health care, equitable tax rates, ending the war and stopping or slowing the outsourcing of good paying jobs...........the repugs were discussing torture and how they support it.

    That says it all!

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  2. Repugs love torture because destroying innocent people is the only way they can compete.

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  3. It really is disheartening when you discover the patriotic moments of pride you felt in your youth have been tarnished by our own government. I recall the very moment Vietnam came into focus for me. My innocence instantly washed away. It was awful. I lost a little more of that when I first learned we torture. You start to wonder if any of these Neoconvicts ever experienced such a sensation - and if they did, why doesn't it still bother them? Where we feel our guts churning over torture, their guts are wrapped up in gaining and retaining power for the sake of power.

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  4. Mike said...
    I called Pelosi's office to tell her how I feel.........and boy did I tell them......I didnt hold back one bit!


    They probably put you on a watch list, lol.

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  5. The old ticking time bomb theory that Dick the Dunce Cheney always uses is BS as well.

    1) the odds of that EVER happing are infinitesimal

    2) it has been proven that people will say ANYTHING to stop the torture and the information gleaned from torture is almost NEVER reliable, factual or correct.

    3) where do you draw the line between what is acceptable and what isnt, if torture is wrong for the terrorists to do, then its wrong for us to do........this follows that twisted premptive logic that its wrong for Saddam to attack another country pre-emptively, but its ok if the USA attacks a country pre-emptively.........where does it end does that mean it would be ok for me to bash someone's skull in pre-emptively because I have a feeling in my big toe they "MIGHT" do me harm someday.

    4) What kind of nation will be be if we support and condone torture, spying on citizens with out warrants or just cause, 2 standards of justice one that does not apply to the powerful and well connected wealthy that allows them to obstruct justice and the other that subjects the working class to a harsh punatative police state.

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  6. Those who torture be it in Iraq or Vietnam, are the same ones who cringe in the corner of despair, if it were about to happen to them.

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  7. Torture is just unnacceptable in ANY circumstances.

    After 911, the gestapo crowd took advantage of Americans fear, and slipped in the torture clauses of the Patriot act.

    Bush used "signing statements" to enact laws (a role reserved for the Legislative branch, not the Executive)to further push the use of torture, and to define who we could torture, which of course now includes ANYONE the President deems an "enemy combatant". US citizen or not.

    And when Americans were asked if they supported it, out came the "Security Moms" to tell us "well, as long as its to keep us safe".

    And thats where America fell.

    Unless Americans show more spine and backbone than to cave to the idea of using the same tactics as the Gestapo under the pretense of "keeping safe", then America is no more. All thats left is "BUSHBURG" USA.

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  8. Chimpy probably doesn't get it for a reason. Growing up with Babs "Beautiful Mind" Bush undoubtedly had a lot of physical and psychological torture as part of the package. Chimpy probably thinks people who get waterboarded are getting off easy.

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  9. BARTLEBEE said...
    Mike said...
    I called Pelosi's office to tell her how I feel.........and boy did I tell them......I didnt hold back one bit!


    They probably put you on a watch list, lol."


    I told her if she didnt do what she was elected to do........Namely, end the war, restore the checks and balances and oversight and hold the treasonous criminals that lied us into a war and are spying on us illegally and spitting on the checks and balances by blatently obstructing justice accountable by impeaching Bush, Cheney, Gonzo et al..........she would be perceived as nothing more than a pathetic gutless self serving joke and would be a one term Speaker!

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  10. Something tells me you're not going to be invited to her next fundraiser Mike.

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  11. Whats really sad is that Bush just ignored these kids, all of whom were smarter than him.

    I am not just saying that. They really ARE smarter than him. These kids IQ's are in the high 150's and up. They are the elite. The best and brightest youth America has to offer.

    And 50 of them, (almost all of them), wrote a letter on the spur of the moment (they did it at lunch, waiting to see the President), and signed their names to it, calling on Bush to cease torture AND the tactic Bush calls "rendition" (most people call it kidnapping).

    And Bush just looked at them, and kind of sternly replied, "we don't torture".

    It was predicted in the good book, that in the end of times, the truth would come "out of the mouths of babes".

    Well there you go.

    50 of them, and Bush still won't listen.

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  12. Torture for Bush is a slow day in death tolls in his war.

    Torture for Cheney is the last plate of pork loin being eaten by the neighbors dog.

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  13. I see Robert has a 24 hour blogathon coming up.

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  14. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  15. Yes, I am doing a Blogathon, Larry. Thanks for bringing it up. I'm blogging for The Alliance for Climate Protection, so check it out.

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  16. Great article, Worf!!

    OK, so the question is...

    Do we torture if the suspect has information that, revealed, could save the lives of thousands?

    My answer is that we're asking the wrong question. The question we should be asking is, "Why do terrorists want to kill thousands of Americans in the first place?

    Bush's answer is that they hate our freedom. That is a lie. The truth is that they hate our corporate economic imperialism in the part of the world they call home, and they are so desperate that they are willing to sacrifice their lives in an attempt to stop it.

    Perhaps if the US were to change our role in the world to good neighbor, instead of world bully enforcing corporate greed, the question of whether to torture will become moot.

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  17. Now they mainly hate Bush.

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  18. Now, with all this talk of torture and "would you . . ." questions, I have a thought for you. If we could throw George W. Bush to al Qaeda as our response to their only demand for peace, would you do it?

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  19. Robert:

    In a minute.

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  20. In a hot New York minute!

    I loved what Jolly Roger said about Ma Babs...my thoughts exactly! I'm not the only one that thinks she is responsible for this blob of flesh. And bartlebee...you go dude!

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  21. Tomcat said...

    My answer is that we're asking the wrong question. The question we should be asking is, "Why do terrorists want to kill thousands of Americans in the first place?


    I wouldn't call it the "wrong question". Its just a different question, than the excellent question you also posed. Which is the next question we need to ask.

    As for the question I posed, I submit that its perfectly fair to ask it. As long as the answer is a resounding NO.

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  22. Robert Rouse said...
    Now, with all this talk of torture and "would you . . ." questions, I have a thought for you. If we could throw George W. Bush to al Qaeda as our response to their only demand for peace, would you do it?


    My answer would be no.

    One standard for all when it comes to matter of magnitude, like murder and torture. And handing Bush over to Al Qaeda would constitute both.

    The whole concept of my article is based on the one standard, on morality when it comes to matters of this caliber. Now we could promise them that we would hold him accountable by our laws, but we could not assure them of the outcome. No spectacled justice. No kangaroo courts. Just honest juris prudence per our legal system.

    We will kill someone attempting to kill us, but we will not kill someone to stop "someone else" from killing us.

    Thats why we're better than the terrorists. Or at least why we're supposed to be.

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  23. Now, if you ask me if I'd "want" to....

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  24. Lydia
    It wouldn't be worthy the rape of a six year old girl or one at any age beacause as you point out, they would just lie to you anyway or say thanks now go ahead and matyr me. Thats one less virgin God has to give me.
    On a more serious note I remember seeing that on google and passed it by knowing they were wasting their time and Bush with another stupid look on his face was going to lie once again.
    However technically he may not torture but he sends prisoners to countries that have no problem with it as you know. If I remember correctly we have heard Cheney and others say waterboarding was justified.
    As usual Bush will say anything to please people and then do the exact opposite which is what he wants and always wrong.
    He has shown all too often that he doesn't care how much he lies, how obvious it is, or how stupid he looks and sounds, as long as he gets his way like a little spoiled brat.
    I saw some remerkable out takes of him talking when his Father was President and I am blown away hos ridiculous he looked and sounded. He looked and sounded drunk. Unbelievable! I refuse to believe someone had the gall to make him a President.

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  25. That's why I asked the question. It brings up a certain amount of conflict inside us. Yes, I would love to get peace, yes, I would like to get rid of George Bush. No, trading one life - even one as miserable as the Shrub - even for such a noble cause - would still run counter to who we are as a people. Of course that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

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  26. My answer would be no.

    One standard for all when it comes to matter of magnitude, like murder and torture. And handing Bush over to Al Qaeda would constitute both.


    I gotta go with Worf on this one, as much as Chimpy might deserve the kind of fate Muslim fanatics would undoubtedly hand him.

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  27. Thats my opinion as well.............we need to have equal justice for EVERYONE, and if torture and murder is wrong its wrong for everyone.........NO ONE deserves to be tortured imprisoned without a fair trial even a pompous idiot and criminal like GWB.....it would be hippocrissy and a double standard to say otherwise..........now that doesnt mean on some level the thought wouldnt prove entertaining, but wrong is wrong.

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  28. an average patriot said...

    Lydia
    It wouldn't be worthy the rape of a six year old girl or one at any age beacause as you point out, they would just lie to you anyway


    Actually Lydia didn't write this one, I did.

    And while you're right, they probably will lie to us.

    But thats NOT the reason we don't do it. We don't do it, because it is just WRONG.

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  29. an average patriot said...

    However technically he may not torture but he sends prisoners to countries that have no problem with it as you know



    That is true, but I would point out that if I were able to kick in your door in the middle of the night, drag you from your home with a plastic sack over your head, lock you in small iron cell with no communications with lawyers, friends, family or anyone on "your side", ... strip you naked and beat you, drown you and revive you, tie you to the wall with wire and shine light in your eyes and blast loud music for days on end so you can't sleep, ... tell you you're gonna die...and NO ONE, knows where you are... I doubt you'd say after a week of this, that it wasn't torture.

    Now, imagine that, for years on end, with no end in sight, and no advocate on your sight, because there really isn't any "one" peice of information I want. I'm just holding you, and every day I have more quesitons for you, and more reasons to beat you.

    Its worse than torture. Its a crime against humanity.

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  30. We all have to die.

    Sooner or later we all will die.

    So no one really "saves lives".

    We can only prolong them.

    Therefore, its not how we die that really matters, but how we live.

    And what we do to stay alive.

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  31. Worfeus
    Yes, I just noticed it was you but Bush could care less if it was wrong. If he could get away withg it he would do it regardless what the rest of us think.

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  32. False argument Worf, A gun is an inanimate oject, a tool. As such, it is the user (person) who is either good or evil.

    And your taking a twist to the argument that wasn't meant.
    You imply that outlawing guns will make criminals out of good people.

    The real implication is, if you outlaw guns most GOOD (law abiding) people will give them up. The EVIL who have already shown a willingness to break the law will not. Thereby leaving the good people with no defense. AND we know that the cavalry (police) do not ALWAYS arrive in the nick of time.

    Bank robbery, rape, and carjacking, (like murder with or without a gun) is ALREADY illegal. And here the INDIVIDUAL is either guilty or not, not the IMPLEMENT.

    As to your ridiculous assertion about allowing a terrorist to rape a 6 year old girl, of course NOT! You couldn't under any circumstances implicate an innocent third party.

    (I was tempted to say "Hey, if it was good enough for Mohammed...
    but, since we're being serious)

    But as to "torture", if we KNOW beyond a shadow of doubt that he is indeed evil, a terrorist or murderer then you do what is necessary to protect those who are not.

    And as for someone "saying anything" to make the torture stop?
    Would we not VERIFY what was told us before stopping? If he REALLY wants it to stop he BETTER be telling the truth, because IF he is not, and we KNOW that this person truly is evil, his death will be a long pain filled experience and his false "confession" will have done him no good.

    Now that last part on torture is simply my own opinion. That said many CIA and NSA agents who are skilled at "coerced interrogation" have claimed that they HAVE gotten good intelligence through their methods.

    And there is a difference between "torture" and coerced interrogation. I don't consider leaving the lights on 24 hours a day and playing eminem "torture" especially if done to the enemy...

    However, simply playing eminem ONCE would probably get me to tell them anything they wanted to know.

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  33. Bush is an evil, evil man.

    He could be as sick as Hitler, in that respect. For example, if Bush thought that the UN was going to free the prisoners from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and they would be interviewed and the truth of what was done to them was looming in front of Bush, does anyone doubt that if he thought he could get away with it, that he would'nt order them all taken out and shot?

    I don't doubt that for a second.

    Bush was the only Govener to execute a mantally handicapped person at the time. He executed young mothers. And he laughed on TV about doing it.

    So when folks in here and all over the internet say he's a madman, and a sick twisted tyrant, they're being quite accurate.

    Bush is as dark as they come.

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  34. Voltron said...
    False argument Worf, A gun is an inanimate oject, a tool. As such, it is the user (person) who is either good or evil.


    You're an idiot.

    Where did my article have anything to do with guns?

    Learn to read.

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  35. worfeus
    What you describe is torture by anyones standard I would hope. They can break our door down now and take you away if they think you are a threat. To Bush anyone that does not agree with him is a threat so that is scary in itself.
    They can go through your mail for the same reason and when they throw it away who is the wiser. They can monitor our computers phones and conversations. It is some Democracy Bush has going here. but torture, he's working on it.

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  36. Idiot said...

    And as for someone "saying anything" to make the torture stop?
    Would we not VERIFY what was told us before stopping? If he REALLY


    If you support torture you're a coward and don't deserve your life.

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  37. Learn to write Worf. You tied your argument back to the NRA, and paraphrased their slogan...

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  38. Idiot said..

    And as for someone "saying anything" to make the torture stop?
    Would we not VERIFY what was told us before stopping?


    How would you do that if it was something that had not happened yet genius?

    Geesh do you think out these arguments before opening your mouth or does this shit just flow?

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  39. Voltron said...
    Learn to write Worf. You tied your argument back to the NRA, and paraphrased their slogan...


    No I didn't you moron.

    Go back and read.

    I NEVER tied ANYTHING to the NRA. I QUOTED someone who had CHANGED a slogan of theirs to address torture.

    NO WHERE in that aritcle, is ANYTHING tied to gun ownership you ignorant twit.

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  40. Duncetron said "And there is a difference between "torture" and coerced interrogation. I don't consider leaving the lights on 24 hours a day and playing eminem "torture" especially if done to the enemy..."

    So I suppose if you or your boy were traveling in Europe and the "DECIDER" of whatever country named you any enemy combatent with no evidence or trial whatsoever and imprisoned, played loud music with bright lights to deprive you of sleep, beat you, water boarded you, subjected you to vicious dogs, excessive cold and heat, and uncomfortable positions for days at a time................that would be perfectly acceptable..........after all the" DECIDER" or one of his minions labeled you an enemy right?????????

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  41. Can you maybe send in a smarter troll?

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  42. Think it through Worf, it's not too hard. You act upon the information as if it WERE real. If he claims there is a bomb about to go off and it's planted at "X", then go check "X". If it's not there, he lied. If he tells you a terrorist action is about to take place at "Y", go look and see if there are known or even suspicious characters (and or circumstances or devices) at "Y". If not, he lied.

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  43. OK, you used SOMEONE else's ridiculous paraphrasing of a NRA slogan regarding guns, and then USE IT to make a parallel argument, AND THEN claim your argument has absolutely nothing to do with guns?

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  44. WORFEUS THE SEER said...
    Bush is an evil, evil man.

    He could be as sick as Hitler, in that respect. For example, if Bush thought that the UN was going to free the prisoners from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and they would be interviewed and the truth of what was done to them was looming in front of Bush, does anyone doubt that if he thought he could get away with it, that he would'nt order them all taken out and shot?

    I don't doubt that for a second.

    Bush was the only Govener to execute a mantally handicapped person at the time. He executed young mothers. And he laughed on TV about doing it.

    So when folks in here and all over the internet say he's a madman, and a sick twisted tyrant, they're being quite accurate.

    Bush is as dark as they come."


    Bush is an EVIL EVIL man, he was voted the biggest threat to world peace since Hitler with good reason..........he is the most evil, corrupt and twisted President we have EVER had........comparing him to Hitler is a very accurate comparison, at this point he is only less evil than Hitler because he does not yet have absolute power as Hitler did........but he is following Hitlers blueprint for seizing power to a tee.

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  45. Heinrich Himmler said...

    And there is a difference between "torture" and coerced interrogation. I don't consider leaving the lights on 24 hours a day and playing eminem "torture" especially if done to the enemy...


    A. Thats not all they're doing.

    B. I think its important to point out here that even the Germans did not do such things to our soldiers when captured. Such tactics were prohibited by the Geneva convention, and as my uncle who was actually IN a Luftwaffe POW camp can tell you, they treated us with respect, and measured dignity, because thats how THEY wanted to be treated by us.

    Do unto others jackass....

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  46. Well, your literary skills aside, the point is the same.

    YOU are "quoting" someone who is trying to draw a parallel between TOOL advocacy to a PERSONAL action.

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  47. You are an idiot Volt most information will not be verifiable since it happens in real time....

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  48. Voltron said...
    OK, you used SOMEONE else's ridiculous paraphrasing of a NRA slogan regarding guns, and then USE IT to make a parallel argument, AND THEN claim your argument has absolutely nothing to do with guns?


    It had NOTHING to do with guns you dullwitted moron.

    READ IT.

    Where did it have ANYTHING to do with guns?

    It was about TORTURE.

    It was ONLY about TORTURE you idiot.

    All I did was mention that the slogan was an NRA slogan, which I had to do to be accurate with the reference, you retarded twit.

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  49. Voltron said...


    YOU are "quoting" someone who is trying to draw a parallel between TOOL advocacy to a PERSONAL action.


    You're a tool, and a fool and you clearly can't read.

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  50. I HAVE read the Luftwaffe run camps were somewhat better, but they were the exception not the rule. And there were far more of the other camps...

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  51. But please, please explain to us all how my article on toture was really about some kind of gun control.

    Go ahead. Show everybody how inbred stupid you really are.

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  52. Voltron said...
    I HAVE read the Luftwaffe run camps were somewhat better, but they were the exception not the rule. And there were far more of the other camps


    All Americans POW's were treated fairly well. It was the Russian POW's who did not enjoy the benefits of the Geneva Conventions, and thats because they didn't honor it themselves.

    Do unto others jackass....

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  53. Its all moot any Voltron.

    You are the kind of man who is comfortable with torturing and other henious means to keep your precious fat ass alive for a few years more.

    I have no empathy, sympathy or even pity for such a low life coward as that.

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  54. OK, I re read it. I concede your point. I misunderstood and it is the very same point I was trying to make to you...LOL

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  55. We all gotta die someday coward.

    Its how you live that matters.

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  56. "All Americans POW's were treated fairly well."
    -Worf, refering to german WW2 POW camps.


    And that's complete Bullshit.

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  57. No its not. There were "incidents" where prisoners were shot. There were also incidents where beatings occured. But for the most part, American POW's were treated reasonably well, and torture nor abuse was rampant in the camps.

    It was the Russians who suffered.

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  58. As to your article, this was probably what caught my eye...

    "But what kind of logic really exists in that tired slogan, particularly when applied to torture?"

    Although the logic is quite good in "that tired slogan", you are correct that it does not apply at all to torture.

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  59. Europeans see US as threat to peace
    By Daniel Dombey and Stanley Pignal in London

    Europeans consistently regard the US as the biggest threat to world stability, a new poll reveals on Monday.

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  60. Voltron said...


    Although the logic is quite good in "that tired slogan", you are correct that it does not apply at all to torture.


    The logic is absent in that argument, for anything, which I proved in the article.

    Just saying some stupid phrase like that means nothing. It is a good sounding saying, but it means nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    Its a fools quote.

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  61. I will concede however that I am making a sweeping generalization in my argument to you on the treatment of US prisoners.

    It is a generally accurate generalization, but as I said, there were exceptions, mostly in the actual Nazi camps, not the Wermacht or the Luftwaffe. Camps like Berga were pretty bad.

    But in general, the German Army, Air Force, and Especially the Navy,treated US POW's quite well.

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  62. And we treated theirs AMAZINGLY well.

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  63. Mow that Japanese. They were mean.

    They were merciless to POWs, and did not honor the Geneva Conventions.

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  64. Which is why we were better than they were.

    And if we wish to maintain that honor, then we need to continue to be "better than the enemy".

    Morality is not a nice to have thats thrown out the window the minute our lives our in danger.

    In fact, how we act when our lives being in danger determines our character and morality.

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  65. "The logic is absent in that argument, for anything, which I proved in the article."

    Now wait a minute. "anything" would INCLUDE guns wouldn't it? I thought you weren't talking about guns?

    AND you didn't MAKE a case for guns at all.

    "It is a good sounding saying, but it means nothing. Absolutely nothing."

    As I was arguing, in it's proper context, GUNS (tools, implements) it DOES mean something. PEOPLE kill, NOT inanimate objects.

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  66. Consider what the current enemy does. Any "horror" that we may come up with is nothing compared to them.

    They do not go by the Geneva conventions, nor would they if we (totally) did. While there may be exceptions here and there, our treatment of them is pretty much on par with the conventions.

    (AND we are not signatories to ALL of the Geneva conventions, and those that we ARE signatory to regard UNIFORMED combatants NOT terrorists masquerading as civilians - which I seem to HAVE to remind people of constantly...)

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  67. A waste of time said...
    Now wait a minute. "anything" would INCLUDE guns wouldn't it? I thought you weren't talking about guns?

    One more time moron.

    The article was about torture.

    My response to something you just said, is irrelevant.

    Now stop wasting my time, before I start to waste yours.

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  68. Voltron said...
    Consider what the current enemy does. Any "horror" that we may come up with is nothing compared to them.

    They do not go by the Geneva conventions, nor would they if we (totally) did.


    Thats all moot.

    We're supposed to be better then they are.

    You obviously are not.

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  69. But keep it up.

    Show the world your sick twisted logic spawned from your own cowardice.

    And I hope you get everything you deserve.

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  70. But all you're really doing is the work of a paid troll. Your only point, your only goal, is to shoot down the article, and drag the discussion into 10,000 different directions.

    How you live with yourself, I haven't a clue.

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  71. If I ever found that I was a snibbling worm of a man, who was so afraid of getting hurt or killed, that I was willing to condone torturing other humans to stay alive a little while longer, I would just take a gun and shoot myself in the head.

    Better dead than inbred.

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  72. LOL.

    I thought dissent was the highest form of patriotism?

    I see now why you think the Nazi's were so nice...

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  73. You and Barty ought to get together and start your own camp for after the elections. Might come in handy IF you win...

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  74. doltron moronicized,

    And that's complete Bullshit.





    No, you insufferable ignorant twit, in general terms the statement is a statement of FACT.

    I knew WWII prisoners, from both theaters. That's what happens when your dad was a 1st Sergeant with 5 theaters of war under his belt.

    I'd tell you to STFU, but you go right on. Every stupid thing you say just makes it easier for me to make my case.

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  75. doltron pissed,

    LOL.

    I thought dissent was the highest form of patriotism?

    I see now why you think the Nazi's were so nice...


    I don't think he's treating you very nicely, Herr Heddenbutten.

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  76. worf wondered,

    But all you're really doing is the work of a paid troll. Your only point, your only goal, is to shoot down the article, and drag the discussion into 10,000 different directions.

    How you live with yourself, I haven't a clue.



    Selfish cowards don't have any trouble at all rationalizing their hatreds, their cruelties, or their disgusting other proclivities.

    ReplyDelete
  77. A president who the reichwing LOVE to revile and hate once said;

    The ONLY thing we have to fear is fear itself;....

    and he went on to lead this great country out of the worst economic depression it ever faced, and won TWO separate wars on Five continents against some very large and capable militarys who had conquered quite a large chunk of this planet and had placed democracy in Europe and Asia in great jeopardy which demanded quite a lot from the citizens of this nations people and treasure, which the President at that time was open and honest with the people about asking them to make sacrifices, which they did to save this great nation.

    a couple of generations later we are attack in a similar manner by a rag tag group of terrorists who had NO Army or Navy and were holed up in one of the most backward nations on the planet,

    The president at that time had the entire planet behind him, getting offers of help and solace, He turned most of them down and allowed a second rate plan to capture the terrorists who planned the attacks to go forward letting the leadership of the attacks to escape, and even had his sec of def worry about plamns for capturing one of the major leaders in that attack to go free instead of placing US soldiers in harms way to capture him.

    The pResidnet then turned to the plans of PNAC to attack a country which had NOTHING to do with 9-11, lying about the WMD's and reasons for war HYPING the very Fear which the other president warned us about, in effect using that fear as a trump card against every one who asked questions about their plans and illegal actions.

    The first President "won" both his wars, and enabled the Economy to return STRONGER then ever with a rising middle class and broad expansion of ther economy for all.

    The second pResident not so much....even though he has fought the war against the third rate backward country for one and a half as long as WW2 took, and the second war lasting longer then WW@ but getting worse every month NOT better.

    I guess the first President was right;

    The ONLY thing we have to fear is fear itself ,

    and those who would hype that fear for their illegal sick immoral perverted grasp for their greed and hunger for permanent power.

    Damn you reichwing clowns worship such a LOSER.........

    ReplyDelete
  78. BTW did you see this one;

    Video: Michael Moore slams CNN, Wolf Blitzer on live TV

    If not it is definitly worth the look.....

    ReplyDelete
  79. Looks like Georgie ain't so good at getting the citizens to fight his "optional" wars as Roosevelt was at getting them to actually defend democracy when it was really threatened, With out the fear card Bush loves to play......

    US Army falls short of recruiting goals again: officials

    The US Army fell short of its recruiting goal in June for the second straight month, raising concerns over the impact of an increasingly unpopular war in Iraq, US defense officials said Monday.

    Although the army is still on track to meet its annual target of 80,000 enlistments, it came up more than 1,000 recruits short of its June goal of 8,400 recruits, said a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    "We missed it by quite a bit," the official told AFP.

    It was the second month in a row that army recruiters failed to meet their monthly target. In May, they fell 400 recruits short of a goal of 5,500 recruits.

    The Pentagon is not expected to officially release the figures until Tuesday.

    "I'm not going to tell you we are not concerned, because we are, but we're not at a stage of panicking or anything," said Colonel Dan Baggio, an army spokesman.

    "We've got the summer months coming up, which are big months for us, and there is obviously going to be pressure to do well," he said.

    "You've got to remember we are fighting a war on two fronts, and it's pretty powerful that to date we're ahead on our annual recruiting numbers," he said.

    But the June shortfall took a big bite out of the 2,000 recruit lead that the army had at the end of May.

    "We significantly cut into that cushion, if you will, but we haven't busted that," said the US defense official. "Suffice it to say we cut that number by more than half."

    Aided by beefed up signing bonuses and other incentives, army recruiters had met their goals every month but one in the 23 months before May.

    But growing public disenchantment with the war in Iraq now appears to be taking a toll with parents increasingly reluctant to encourage their sons or daughters to enlist, the defense official said.

    "When you are in a long protracted war, nobody wants to see their kids get hurt," the official said. "So that is one of the challenges that we have."

    To meet their year-end goal, army recruiters must sign up even larger numbers of eligible youths in each of the next three months.

    The army's goal is to recruit at least 9,750 prospective soldiers in July, another 9,600 in August, and 9,500 in September, when the fiscal year comes to a close.

    The army fell short of its annual recruiting goal in fiscal 2005, but recovered the following year by easing eligibility standards and offering bigger bonuses and financial incentives to new recruits.


    BTW dolty boy, how's that age waiver request thingy going son?

    ReplyDelete
  80. BTW, Cheney is approaching snake sh*t, in his approval rating, in the polls;

    >Cheney Rivaling Quayle As Least Popular VP

    Polls show Dick Cheney has had a recent drop in his approval ratings that bring him very close to Dan Quayle, who was the least popular vice president since the age of polling began. Cheney is now viewed disapprovingly by 59 percent of Americans, four points less than Quayle's high of 63 percent in July 1992. Meanwhile, Cheney's personal favorability is an astounding 13 percent — an all-time low. We reported last week that a majority now favor impeachment proceedings against Cheney — an intensity of loathing that not even Quayle suffered from.

    But then again Cheney and snake sh*t do have a lot in common .......

    ReplyDelete
  81. Great post Worf.

    I have just met and interviewed 54 of the most amazing women, each from a different state in the United States, all of them involved passionately in charity work. All are vying for the Mrs. United States title, which advocates for women of substance, women involved in making a difference in their communities and the world.

    One mother is supporting her family while nursing her husband through PTSD. Several have endured many separations as military wives while their husbands have been in Iraq or overseas... and one has six children, three are special needs children who were abused and abandoned.

    God Bless these amazing American women. This country is full of incredible people doing great things. It makes me feel that I can be doing so much more.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Michael Moore said ""Our own government admits that because of the 47 million who aren't insured, we now have about 18,000 people a year that die in this country, simply because they don't have health insurance. That's six 9/11s every single year," concluded Moore. We need "universal health care that's free for everyone who lives in this country, it'll cost us less than what we're spending now lining the pockets of these private health insurance companies, or these pharmaceutical companies."


    Six 9/11's where is the "compasionate conservatives" outrage over that?

    ReplyDelete
  83. Lydia Cornell said...
    Great post Worf.

    I have just met and interviewed 54 of the most amazing women, each from a different state in the United States, all of them involved passionately in charity work. All are vying for the Mrs. United States title, which advocates for women of substance, women involved in making a difference in their communities and the world.

    One mother is supporting her family while nursing her husband through PTSD. Several have endured many separations as military wives while their husbands have been in Iraq or overseas... and one has six children, three are special needs children who were abused and abandoned.

    God Bless these amazing American women. This country is full of incredible people doing great things. It makes me feel that I can be doing so much more."

    Cool, Any pictures or Video?

    ReplyDelete
  84. BTW Lydia, if you need any "assistance" interviewing the 54 hot chicks...........i'm available LOL!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  85. http://www.manteno.k12.il.us/webquest/high/SocialScience/Holocaust/Hitler.html

    I thought this portion of the aricle was interesting:

    "A second volume of Mein Kampf was published in 1927. It included a history of the Nazi party to that time and its program, as well as a primer on how to obtain and retain political power, how to use propaganda and terrorism, and how to build a political organization.Once released from prison, Hitler decided to seize power constitutionally rather than by force of arms."


    Rove, Bush and Cheney learned from the master.........they must have an autographed copy of Mein Kamph on their book shelves, because they've been following Hitlers plan for seizing power to the letter!

    ReplyDelete
  86. "and the second war lasting longer then WW@ but getting worse every month NOT better."

    Hey Cliffy, try putting Juan Cole down for a minute and read Michael Yon or Bill Roggio...

    It'll be interesting to read Patraeus report in September eh?

    ReplyDelete
  87. Voltron said...

    I thought dissent was the highest form of patriotism?


    A. I doubt YOU ever thought THAT

    B. If you do think that, when are you going to start dissenting?

    ReplyDelete
  88. "Selfish cowards don't have any trouble at all rationalizing their hatreds, their cruelties, or their disgusting other proclivities."

    People in glass houses Jr., People in glass houses...

    ReplyDelete
  89. Already have Worfy, I'm dissenting your misguided statements here, and I dissent on global warming as well.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Wrong again said...

    I see now why you think the Nazi's were so nice...

    So now all you have left is to lie, and invent a position for me like you tried to do with my article?

    Show us where I said the Nazi's were nice, or anything of the sort.

    In fact, once again if you actually knew how to read, you'd see that I singled out the nazi's as the only ones who did not treat our prisoners well.

    You are pathetic.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Dolty Boy you EVER gonna grow a set and put your chicken shit ass on the line?

    ReplyDelete
  92. Every post you have made tonight has been a pile of horse shit.

    You have yet to refute what I have said. You simply have your lying mouth.

    ReplyDelete
  93. And in all seriousness Worf, I don't know that it's the "highest form", but it IS an integral part of patriotism...

    It may be the highest IF your sure you're correct. It may also be the lowest if you've based your dissent on misconceptions, outright falsehoods, enemy propaganda and someone else's agenda...

    See, a lot (if not all) of your liberal organizations can trace their origins back to socialist or communist front groups. And you guys eat up their pablum at the expense of your country.

    ReplyDelete
  94. WORFEUS THE SEER said...
    Voltron said...

    I thought dissent was the highest form of patriotism?


    A. I doubt YOU ever thought THAT

    B. If you do think that, when are you going to start dissenting?"


    No you dont you lying punk, if you did you wouldnt be calling people who DO dissent with your DECIDER traitors or in league with the enemy to TRY to silence them you treasonous SOB!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  95. Oh and by the way George Washington. Dissention to the government is considered patriotism.

    Not to a blog.

    ReplyDelete
  96. And Worf, I DID refute it. You just haven't seen it yet. Just for you.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Voltron said...
    And in all seriousness Worf, I don't know that it's the "highest form", but it IS an integral part of patriotism...

    It may be the highest IF your sure you're correct. It may also be the lowest if you've based your dissent on misconceptions, outright falsehoods, enemy propaganda and someone else's agenda...

    See, a lot (if not all) of your liberal organizations can trace their origins back to socialist or communist front groups. And you guys eat up their pablum at the expense of your country."


    Sounds like you got a guilty conscious for all the lies and being dead wrong on almost EVERYTHING aye Pinochio.

    Oh and BTW the Reich Wing can trace their origins back to Dictators and Monarchs like Hitler and King George 3rd the other insane self professed king!

    ReplyDelete
  98. Oh and BTW Duncetron I see you still havent addressed your idiotic talking point about National Health care I shredded...........to busy trying to attack and derail the new article with absolute BS!

    ReplyDelete
  99. Voltron said...

    It may be the highest IF your sure you're correct. It may also be the lowest if you've based your dissent on misconceptions, outright falsehoods, enemy propaganda and someone else's agenda...


    GOD you are thick.

    I mean really freaking thick.

    One more time for the idiot in the peanut gallery.

    I have NEVER been a democrat. I have never been political. I did not "get my agenda" from the liberals, or the democrats or anyone else for that matter you brainless, spineless twit.

    I grew up a republican, in a family of republicans. I also grew up Southern Baptist in a family of Southern Baptists.

    I never voted. And I never went to church. In other words, I didn't give a shit you freaking jerk!!!!!

    DO YOU GET IT YET?

    It was YOU ASSHOLE. YOU AND The goddamned son of a bitches you put into power that brought me into this thing. I didn't read any left wing literature when I registered the first time to vote against the nazi scum you call a president. I didn't even know what the difference was to be honest. I didn't know republican from democrat.It was only after Bush started turning into Hitler junior that I paid any attention to this.

    YOUR KIND MADE ME.

    I am your creation.

    The fact that you just can't see that will be your undoing.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Don't sob Mikey, it's unbecoming.

    ReplyDelete
  101. And you didn't refute shit.

    You just ran your mouth about gun control and bullshit about why we have to torture.

    My article refuted everything you said BEFORE you even said it.

    Because like I said, its all moot.

    There are absolutes in this world pal, and you your ilk have crossed those boundaries, and you're trying to drag the rest of us down with you, into that fiery pit of hell you call home. But you won't.

    Because some of us would rather die, than have our souls twisted like the moral cowards you have become.

    You can't stop us. And your 15 minutes are just about up.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Yo dolty boy, as for Bill Roggio;

    Embedded Bias?

    I was credentialed by The Weekly Standard

    anybody who admits sucking Bill Kristol's dick for money will NEVER get any respect from me son...and he is NOT proficient in Arabic or Farsi, so he CAN"T read and comment like Juan Cole does.

    As for Michael Yon, looks like he reprints other stories and hooks up with the US military to spout reichwing propaganda for the neo-cons, BUT he doesn't seem to be proficient in either language either NOR does he have the understanding of the region historically or culturally like both Juan Cole and Pat Lang who neither of these clowns as FIT to question at all.

    SO widdle boy GFY and find somebody who can actually intellectually compete and doesn't have a financial interest in the reichwing neo-con position son.

    Other wise STFU and go get that age wavier widdle scaredy boy.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Dont worry Dolty I wont be the one crying in 2008!

    ReplyDelete
  104. I will agree that the Republicans in congress became rather arrogant and needed a comeuppance.

    That has happened. Now look at how the Dems have handled things. The same arrogance. (as you here have admitted btw...)

    I will say this to you, don't be fooled by polls. Yes, 90% or whatever may be against the current congress, president or the war. But some of them have very different reasoning than you do.

    Some are Republicans and Conservatives fed up with the way things are being handled.

    Do you think they're just gonna throw out the baby with the bathwater? Think they'll suddenly and against all their principles vote liberals into office?

    Maybe they'll just vote out the incumbents and vote in a whole new set of Conservatives.

    The watch may get rewound before that 15 minutes expires.

    ReplyDelete
  105. CNN;

    breaking news


    Sen Olympia Snow(R-Me) may call for the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.....looks like another re-pubie jumping off the reichwing bus of Bush ET AL.....

    ReplyDelete
  106. Voltron said...
    I will agree that the Republicans in congress became rather arrogant and needed a comeuppance.


    Gee ya THINK?

    ReplyDelete
  107. Voltron said...

    That has happened.



    It hasn't even started yet.

    ReplyDelete
  108. I see the gutless chicken shit has NADA to say about his big mouth boast last year about going to Iraq, and nothing but farts... belching ...and crapping on his computer with disinformation and reichwing spin, instead of admitting he is just another GUTLESS CHICKEN HAWK.....

    Way to go dolt.....

    ReplyDelete
  109. Voltron said...

    Think they'll suddenly and against all their principles vote liberals into office?


    You still show you just don't "get it".

    I don't care who they vote INTO office.

    As long as they vote YOU out.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Ooooo, another RINO.

    Who'd a thunk?


    I thought we had till September?
    You can tell the Dems are scared if they're gonna go back on themselves.

    Wonder what it is they're afraid of?
    That things are going better than expected, and we may yet win?

    ReplyDelete
  111. What if they vote in a whole bunch of Conservatives who can ACTUALLY and effectively get the job done?

    Will that suit you?

    ReplyDelete
  112. Dolt, give me a Barry Goldwater style politician, and maybe we can talk,

    try to foist ANYTHING, which calls itself conservative, in the Reagan-Bush(either of them) tradition, and your just another reichwing hack, spinning the downfall of their party of lies and deceptions of the last 27 years......but then again you tried to pass off two light weights as equals to Juan Cole......

    ReplyDelete
  113. Well, I'm tired. You kids have fun.

    ReplyDelete
  114. See, in our democratic republic, we have all kinds, and various offices, branches etc.

    You never are going to get people who think exactly as you do. Its more or less, and you get candidates who are closer and further from your positions at various times, and in various offices. Some are good men. Some not so good. But because of the way it was set up, it all usually balances out, and the country moves forward.

    But you guys were something different altogether. I can honestly say I've never seen anything like it in my adult life, and I pray to God I never do again.

    As I said, YOU created me.

    I am a product of the new RNC.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Voltron said...

    I thought we had till September?


    No you said you had till September.

    WE SAID, bring em home now.

    ReplyDelete
  116. BTW dolt ALL this is in the works;

    Here It Is! A Handy Guide To All The Democrats' Plans To End Iraq War

    By Spencer Ackerman

    Readers: Here's your Election Central guide to all the possible legislative initiatives to end the Iraq War that are being worked out behind the scenes by Dem Congressional leaders and may be launched in the coming days.

    Today Act II of the Democratic Congress' efforts to end the Iraq war kicks off in earnest -- beginning this afternoon, when the defense authorization bill goes to the Senate floor for two weeks of debate.

    Democrats intend to turn the measure into a referendum on Iraq by introducing a whole series of Iraq-related amendments to the $650 billion defense bill, which sets Pentagon policy priorities for the next year. Each of these amendments is designed to rein in President Bush's conduct of the war and to force Senate Republicans to take a stand on the war and testing Bush's remaining political capital.

    But the sheer amount of legislative initiatives Dems are planning -- and the complexity of the politics and policy details surrounding them -- can sometimes make the whole exercise seem bewilderingly complex. How would each initiative work? What are the prospects for each one's success? What is each one's real political purpose?

    In advance of the coming showdown, our handy guide to all the different initiatives attempts to answer all such questions. View our guide after the jump.

    Here's your guide to the coming legislative showdown:

    (1) Legislative Mechanism: The Webb Troop-Readiness Amendment

    How it Would Work: Spotlighted by EC last month, Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA) will propose a troop readiness measure increasing the amount of time active and reserve forces spend at home between deployments. While the precise numbers are unclear, if it passes, it will prevent the Pentagon from relieving units rotating out of Iraq in the spring with active-duty forces who haven't been home at for at least as long as their last tour, and three times as long for reservists. Due to the strain the four-year war has put on the military, Webb's amendment would very likely stop the surge by early 2008 and prevent any future escalation.

    Likelihood of Passage: Reid will introduce Webb's amendment this afternoon. It's similar to a legislative gambit in the House by Rep. Jack Murtha (D-PA) that garnered fierce and successful opposition. Democrats don't expect that to change.

    Political Purpose: Webb thinks that highlighting the stress that the increased operational tempo puts on the troops is the most favorable way for Democrats to frame the issue, even if GOPers accuse him of trying to get out of Iraq through the back door of deployment scheduling. Here the real target of the amendment may not be Senate Republicans or President Bush, but Defense Secretary Bob Gates, who's bringing deployment stress issues to bear on this week's internal administration deliberation on the surge. Watch for what Webb's fellow Virginia senator, defense lion John Warner -- who's uncommitted as to whether he'll seek reelection next year -- says about Webb's bill as a barometer of GOP defection.

    ******************************

    (2) Legislative Mechanism: The Levin-Reed Timeline

    How It Would Work: Again similar to a measure pushed by Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI), the chairman of the armed services committee, in the spring. Joined by Sen. Jack Reed (D-RI) this time, the Levin amendment would start troop withdrawals from 120 days after passage, to be completed by April 1, 2008. In the interim, troops in Iraq would have their mission shift to training Iraq troops, fighting al-Qaeda, and protecting themselves from attack.

    Likelihood of Passage: It's not a certainty for inclusion as an amendment. Harry Reid successfully shepherded the measure's predecessor through the supplemental, where it inevitably met President Bush's veto pen. Both men will probably do the same thing again.

    Political Purpose: The big enchilada: getting out of Iraq by a date certain. Many Senate Dems clearly think that the public has coalesced around withdrawal, and even in defeat, they'll get the opportunity to distinguish themselves from Bush and the GOP going into 2008 while hanging the war around their opponent's necks as an albatross.

    *****************************

    (3) Legislative Mechanism: The Feingold Funding Cutoff

    How It Would Work: Same as Levin-Reed, but Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) adds the punch of cutting off funding for the war by April 1, 2008.

    Likelihood of Passage: Slim, and not just because it's not yet sure to be added to the defense bill. Senate Dems can coalesce around Levin-Reed for functional similarity without having to say that the money runs out for the war by a certain time, which is something Republicans can use against them. Forget about GOP defections on this one.

    Political Purpose: On its own, probably not that much. But it will have the likely effect of making Levin-Reed seem like a moderate approach by comparison, and perhaps bolster support for that approach.

    *******************************

    (4)Legislative Mechanism: The Clinton Deauthorization

    How It Would Work: This amendment, offered by Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY), would revoke the 2002 congressional authorization for the Iraq invasion. President Bush would then -- presumably -- feel pressure to return to a hostile Congress to seek authority for the war if he wants to keep troops in Iraq through the remainder of his term in office.

    Likelihood of Passage: Difficult to say. Warner has publicly flirted with Clinton's bill, and it could probably pick up votes from GOP Iraq-waverers like Chuck Hagel, Dick Lugar, Pete Domenici, George Voinovich, Olympia Snowe and others. But like other moderate proposals, both hawks and doves could also question the relevance of revisiting the initial authorization for the war for planning future strategy. Not surprisingly, Clinton's amendment isn't yet slated for inclusion in the defense authorization.

    Political Purpose: For Clinton, it's obvious -- bolstering her antiwar credentials for the Democratic presidential primary. On its own merits, the plan would make Bush spell out the remaining missions for the U.S. in Iraq. (Supporting a failing Iraqi government? Seeking an enduring military presence? Helping Iraq stay together as a country?) The gamble is that the more specific Bush gets about the mission, the less able he'll be to retain support for it, either from the congressional GOP or the broader public.

    *********************************

    (5) Legislative Mechanism: The Return to the Iraq Study Group

    How It Would Work: Sens. Ken Salazar and Domenici put together a bill that would commit the Bush administration to implementing the recommendations of last year's bipartisan Iraq commission led by James Baker and Lee Hamilton. Though the commission had over 70 points of advice, functionally, the strategy set by the commission looks somewhat similar to Levin-Reed. While it wouldn't call for a troop pullout after April 1, 2008, the commission did recommend that the U.S. end its combat mission by then, leaving U.S. troops to train Iraqi security forces, fight al-Qaeda and protect themselves.

    Likelihood of Passage: If it gets into the bill, its chances look very good. The Salazar-Domenici plan is the only truly bipartisan potential amendment. It is the plan most likely to attract Republican votes, since it doesn't embrace withdrawal. And as Bush has pivoted lately to embracing the Iraq Study Group after initially scorning it, the White House will find Salazar-Domenici the most palatable measure on offer in the senate.

    Political Purpose: An acrimony-free bipartisan abandonment of the war without an abandonment of the U.S. commitment to Iraq. Quite possibly the best option for the GOP to argue that it's winding down the war without repudiating it, because it would allow GOP senators to back away from combat operations in Iraq without committing themselves to withdrawal. While Democrats wouldn't get withdrawal from Salazar-Domenici, they would be able to claim that they successfully won over many Republicans -- perhaps leading to a bipartisan withdrawal bill during the next legislative fight.

    A Footnote: Also lined up for the bill are prospective Democratic amendments to restore habeas corpus to Guantanamo Bay detainees, overturning a major piece of GOP legislation last year.

    ***************************

    What It All Means:

    In essence, the debate that's about to unfold is a replay of the spring's fight over the Iraq and Afghanistan supplemental funding bill that Democrats also turned into a vehicle for pressuring Bush to end the war. That ended in a presidential veto that Democrats didn't have the votes to override.

    But the president won that fight largely thanks to a mostly united GOP caucus supporting him (Sen. Hagel being the exception), bolstered by the argument that the surge was just beginning and needed time to work. The intervening months have seen prominent Republican defections on the war from Senators Lugar, Voinovich and Domenici, all of whom expressed doubt about the surge's efficacy.

    Worse still for the White House, at the beginning of next week, the administration has to release to Congress a progress report on the war -- something that Democrats can use to spotlight the discrepancy between rhetoric and reality, especially if the Iraqi parliament, as expected, schedules a vote of no confidence in Iraqi PM Nouri al-Maliki.

    Because of the confluence of all these factors, Democrats sense a chance to mark a turning point in the debate over the Iraq war. Bush had preferred that this turning-point moment come in September, when General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker deliver their much-anticipated assessments of the war's fortunes, something the White House hopes will at least help hold the GOP line through 2008.

    But Democrats want to deny the White House as much cover as they can from the upcoming Petraeus-Crocker reports. From their perspective, if they can prepare the political battleground over Iraq through the summer, Bush
    will have a harder time preventing the Dems from stripping away enough moderate GOP votes to override a presidential veto on any of the proposals in the bill.

    "As evidence continues to mount that the surge is failing to make Iraq more secure, Sen. Reid is absolutely committed to using every opportunity to force President Bush and the Iraqis to take a measure of accountability for this war," says Reid spokesman Jim Manley.

    A veto-proof majority is still far from certain for any of the amendments under consideration, and strong opposition from the White House is guaranteed. What's more, few of these amendments are certainties for inclusion in the defense authorization, as Dem staffers say the caucus is still considering its options.

    But the curtain raises on Act II of the Democratic effort to end the war this afternoon, and here at Election Central we'll be bringing you up-to-the-minute coverage of this protracted drama in the coming days.

    **********************************

    enjoy dolt, your reichwingers closet is gonna get smaller and smaller as re-pubies like Olympia snow among others keep jumping off the stupid short yellow bus the GOP claims is a party.

    ReplyDelete
  117. BTW dolty boy about that age waiver son?

    ReplyDelete
  118. Are YOU ever gonna grow a set?

    ReplyDelete
  119. Voltron said...
    What if they vote in a whole bunch of Conservatives who can ACTUALLY and effectively get the job done?

    Will that suit you?


    Well at this point, it would take some pretty amazing conservatives.

    But I'd be willing to consider supporting Ron Paul.

    I have to hear more of what he has to say.

    ReplyDelete
  120. I'd also "listen" to Chuck Hagel, although I am not as impressed with him as I am with Ron Paul.

    In fact, I am paying close attention to Ron Paul these days.

    Very close attention.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Oil prices may soar to 100 dpb in two years - ranking Kuwaiti figure

    Dr. Imad Al-Atigi, member of the Supreme Petroleum Council, told Kuwait News Agency (KUNA) that the oil prices have been rising since 2003, reaching $70 per barrel, before stabilizing in 2006.

    But now the prices of oil, a strategic commodity of global value, appear on a rising course anew and may soar to $100 per barrel by 2009.


    He AIN"T talking about Gulf of Mexico Hurricanes either.....

    Hey you reichwingers why don't cha go buy another 7 mph SUV?

    ReplyDelete
  122. WORFEUS THE SEER said...
    Voltron said...

    I thought we had till September?


    No you said you had till September.

    WE SAID, bring em home now."


    Exactly YOU thought you had till September and jelly Fish like Nancy Pelosi helped you think that I say end this quagmire ASAP!

    ReplyDelete
  123. Y'all, I've never asked anything of you before, and the chances are real good I won't again.

    But tonight I got presented with a challenge. Somebody who would be one of the best Progressive voices in Congress needs a little prodding to get her to make up her mind to have a run at it.

    Please see my post to her, and then follow the link in my post to her site. Read a little. I am sure that after you do, you'll agree with me that she's just what we want to see in Washington. What we NEED to see.

    As most of you are bloggers, you can even help me prod her a little. While we may not live in her District, the values she holds true to are OUR values. The more Progressives we can send to Congress, the better off the country is going to be.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Sorry dolty, the conservatives that I knew of as a kid simply do not exist anymore.

    Everett Dirksen. Gerald Ford. Charles Percy. William Saxbe. Men who were free of racist and religious prejudice, men who didn't want to create an American Empire by shedding the blood of our youth in needless enterprises, men who actually believed in a smaller, less intrusive Government.

    The conservatives in America are as dead as the trees in the Petrified Forest. Yes, Paul is in their neighborhood, but he's still a few too many blocks away for my sensibilities.

    ReplyDelete
  125. I read it JR, but honestly don't know what I'd do to help. As you said I don't live in Wisconsin, and I've have to learn more about her before I'd just get behind someone. I do agree with her on Cindy Sheehan however.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Why don't you get behind Ron Paul Voltron?

    If you want a "uniter" in the conservative party, there he is.

    Or is he just not a big enough war mongerer for you?

    ReplyDelete
  127. Senator's Number on Escort Service List

    H/T to mirth

    Sen. David Vitter, R-La., apologized Monday night for "a very serious sin in my past" after his telephone number appeared among those associated with an escort service operated by the so-called "D.C. Madam."

    Vitter's spokesman, Joel Digrado, confirmed the statement in an e-mail sent to The Associated Press.

    "This was a very serious sin in my past for which I am, of course, completely responsible," Vitter said in the statement. "Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling. Out of respect for my family, I will keep my discussion of the matter there - with God and them. But I certainly offer my deep and sincere apologies to all I have disappointed and let down in any way."

    ReplyDelete
  128. Oh man...

    I come in, see a new post (very good thought-provoking one, btw) and see that there's already 132 comments! I can't keep up and hate that I might repeat what's already been said, so I'll just say EXCELLENT POST! :)

    ReplyDelete
  129. worf said

    I read it JR, but honestly don't know what I'd do to help. As you said I don't live in Wisconsin, and I've have to learn more about her before I'd just get behind someone. I do agree with her on Cindy Sheehan however.


    I don't either. But I live in the District of "Junket John" Boehner, which means trying to dethrone the local Chimpleton is a non-starter.

    Micki's in Wisconsin, but hers is the kind of voice all of us need to have in Congress. We do a Micki here and a Micki there, and before you know it, we've got change coming.

    I have no problem helping her any way I can. I recommend you read through her blog if you want an idea of what she believes in. I don't think you'll be disappointed. And Ryan needs to go in any case. In the past, I've sent money to Nebraska and Florida to help knock off Chimpletons. I'm always ready to lend a hand to get rid of another one.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Senator Vitter admits number on ‘DC Madam’ phone records

    According to Vitter, his phone number appeared on the phone records of the escort service Pamela Martin and Associates before he ran for the Senate in 2004.

    From 1999 to 2004, Vitter served as a congressmen in Louisiana's 1st district.

    In 2004, Vitter campaigned with a promise of "protecting the sanctity of marriage," and was a co-author of the "Federal Marriage Act" that sought to prohibit courts from interpreting same-sex marriage laws.


    So when does the reichwing begin its ceaseless screeching and CALL for his resignation?

    I mean he cheated which was all you clowns ever had on Clinton when you wasted the time from 1997 until the 2000 election spending untold MILLIONS chasing the Clenis and totally ignoring real oversight of the FBI and CIA as al quaeda was setting it’s plans in motion for 9-11

    ReplyDelete
  131. Jolly Roger-

    I'm just back from your place. I left you a comment. :)

    ReplyDelete
  132. Chimpletons, would you like to come defend your "values" boy? Dolty? What say you?

    ReplyDelete
  133. Go Check out this video on Chuck's blog

    The Lie of 9/11/2001

    ReplyDelete
  134. clif reported,

    Senator Vitter admits number on ‘DC Madam’ phone records

    According to Vitter, his phone number appeared on the phone records of the escort service Pamela Martin and Associates before he ran for the Senate in 2004.

    From 1999 to 2004, Vitter served as a congressmen in Louisiana's 1st district.

    In 2004, Vitter campaigned with a promise of "protecting the sanctity of marriage," and was a co-author of the "Federal Marriage Act" that sought to prohibit courts from interpreting same-sex marriage laws.



    There is a house in DC,
    It was called a house of fun
    And it ruined the the morals of those values types
    Right here, I'll show you one

    He ran on Mom and Apple Pie
    From down Louisiana way
    But the madam got out her Rolodex
    And proved, he played for pay

    He preached about his marriage
    And he screamed about those gays
    What a shock it was in down in Jesusland
    When the madam, revealed his ways

    Go tell those values voters
    That they've been had again
    Tell them to shun the values ones
    Cause they all lie and sin

    There is a house in DC,
    It was called a house of fun
    And it ruined the the morals of those values types
    Right here, I'll show you one

    ReplyDelete
  135. BTW we need to put Sen Vitter’s adultery with a certain Madam’s employees in perspective;

    Congressman Denies Affair With Prostitute, Says Charges Are Politically Motivated



    For the first time, Congressman David Vitter has spoken out publically about allegations that he carried on an eleven month affair with a known prostitute named Wendy Cortez…..

    He lies so easily about it…….

    h/t tpm

    ReplyDelete
  136. I mean,

    He couldn’t possibly have been using a prostitute in New Orleans, because he was using a prostitute in Washington that year……..

    ReplyDelete
  137. Wow Mike. Thanks. I didn't even think that particular blog was "live". I see it showed up on my profile. I was just testing with that and never got back around to it (but I need to because I have a lot to say there. One hell of a convincing video, isn't it?

    All of those bush lovers can yell "conspiracy nut" and make all of the "fringe" comments they want. I say DEFEAT 10% of the inside job evidence and I'll apologize. I haven't had to yet.

    ReplyDelete
  138. It SURE was a powerful video Chuck...........as far as the bush chimpletons thats ALL they do is try to paint you as a conspiracy wacco or radical fringe element when the truth is THEY are a bunch of radical fringe treasonous SOB's!

    ReplyDelete
  139. That's for sure.

    ReplyDelete
  140. We're becoming a 3rd world country under GWB, our ranking in heath care is that of a third world country, our safty is worse than MANY 3rd world countries........Columbia which a decade ago lead the world in murders now has one of the fewest in fact the Country of Columbia has a comprable rate of murders to the city of washington DC or the State of Rhode Island.........Our education system and the competitiveness of our Children is being eclipsed by China, India etc who are producing FAR more scientists and engineers than America....Bush wants to teach creationism and religion in schools rather than science!

    ReplyDelete
  141. What will they do now:

    WASHINGTON — A progress report on Iraq will conclude that the U.S.-backed government in Baghdad has not met any of its targets for political, economic and other reforms, speeding up the Bush administration's reckoning on what to do next, a U.S. official said Monday.

    The "pivot point" for addressing the matter will no longer be Sept. 15, as initially envisioned, when a full report on Bush's so-called "surge" plan is due, but instead will come this week when the interim mid-July assessment is released, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the draft is still under discussion.

    "Surge" on Bush you miserable failure.

    ReplyDelete
  142. Washington Post:

    As he sought to renew the USA Patriot Act two years ago, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales assured lawmakers that the FBI had not abused its potent new terrorism-fighting powers. "There has not been one verified case of civil liberties abuse," Gonzales told senators on April 27, 2005.

    Six days earlier, the FBI sent Gonzales a copy of a report that said its agents had obtained personal information that they were not entitled to have.

    What a shock, another lie from Bush's attorney. What a shock!

    ReplyDelete
  143. Poor old Phony:

    WASHINGTON - Ted Stevens, the longest-serving Republican senator and once the chief power broker for dispensing federal dollars, says he's worried that a corruption investigation "could cause me some trouble" in running for re-election next year.

    We're really worried for the future convicted felon!

    ReplyDelete
  144. Seventeen civilians, including children, were killed and about 30 others wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up near a NATO convoy in southern Afghanistan, police said Tuesday.

    I thought Bush said he won this war!

    ReplyDelete
  145. Reuters:

    Opposition to the Iraq war has climbed to a record high and President George W. Bush's approval rating dropped to a new low amid growing dissent from members of his own Republican party over his war strategy, according to a new USAToday/Gallup poll.

    Bush's approval dropped to 29 percent in the poll taken Friday through Sunday, down from 33 percent in early June, USA Today reported on Tuesday.

    One in five Americans said the increase in U.S. forces in Iraq this year has made the situation there better while half said it has made no difference, the newspaper said.

    More than seven in 10 Americans favor withdrawing nearly all U.S troops from Iraq by April, the newspaper said.

    Bush has "surged" downward in the polls. Wonder Why!

    ReplyDelete
  146. Larry said,

    We're becoming a 3rd world country under GWB, our ranking in heath care is that of a third world country, our safty is worse than MANY 3rd world countries..


    The economic model of a third world country is one that exports raw materials, and imports finished produtcs.

    Take a real good, hard look at this economy.

    Heckuva job, Chimpy.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Oops.... meant to credit Mike and didn't. Sorry :(

    ReplyDelete
  148. First of all, it breaks my heart and scares me to death that my country is even talking about torturing people.

    Second, if we torture people we will become the very people we have always fought against. We must not lower ourselves to the level of our enemies. We just must not.

    ReplyDelete
  149. BTW, the dollar has quietly fallen to new all time lows against the Euro...........while Bush fiddles!

    ReplyDelete
  150. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  151. IEA wakes up and smells the Peak Oil

    That Polyanna of energy price prediction, the International Energy Agency (IEA), issued a new report today which, while it still does not acknowledge peak oil, predicts a supply crunch in the 2010-12 time range.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Meltdown: McCain drops top staffers

    Fires campaign manager, 2 closest aides quit; Differing accounts on quit vs. fired.

    st Johnny the delusional's campaign is melting down?

    Don't worry he can be as delusional about his campaign as he was during his tour of that Baghdad market.....

    You know the one where it was supposed to be as safe as a market in Indiana even thought he was wearing bullet proof vets and had 100 troops and three attack helicopters protecting him in his delusions.....

    ReplyDelete
  153. Great News! Great News!

    A report citing a lack of progress by the Baghdad government is only "a look at the starting line" of the U.S. troop surge and shouldn't be used by critics to demand withdrawal, President Bush's spokesman said Tuesday.

    Great news. Bush is now at the starting point of his war in Iraq.

    This means all those thousands of lives who died, are merely a prelude to what he has in store.

    Impeach Bush and Cheney Now!

    ReplyDelete
  154. Reuters:

    The U.S. navy has sent a third aircraft carrier to its Fifth Fleet area of operations, which includes Gulf waters close to Iran, the navy said on Tuesday.

    "Enterprise (aircraft carrier) provides navy power to counter the assertive, disruptive and coercive behaviour of some countries, as well as support our soldiers and marines in Iraq and Afghanistan," a U.S. Navy statement said.

    The move comes weeks after a flotilla of U.S. warships sailed through the narrowest point in the Gulf to hold exercises off Iran's coast in a major show of force.

    Get ready for World War III, courtesy of Bush!

    ReplyDelete
  155. Another Bush failure:

    The US Army fell short of its recruiting goal in June for the second straight month, raising concerns over the impact of an increasingly unpopular war in Iraq, US defense officials said Monday.

    Although the army is still on track to meet its annual target of 80,000 enlistments, it came up more than 1,000 recruits short of its June goal of 8,400 recruits, said a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    "We missed it by quite a bit," the official told AFP.

    It was the second month in a row that army recruiters failed to meet their monthly target. In May, they fell 400 recruits short of a goal of 5,500 recruits.

    Bush's wars and potential wars are driving kids away from the service.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Hey guys, does anyone have the list of customers to the DC madam case that were released

    ReplyDelete
  157. Not any names just Phone numbers which must be searched and cross referenced with Nexis to try to find out who the PH# belongs to,
    sen Vitter just admitted he was going to be outed;

    and since he said this when he was running for congress;

    Vitter Flashback: Clinton should resign.

    Sen. David Vitter (R-LA) first got his start in Congress after replacing former Rep. Bob Livingston (R-LA), who “abruptly resigned after disclosures of numerous affairs” in 1998. At the time, Vitter argued that an extramarital affair was grounds for resignation:

    “I think Livingston’s stepping down makes a very powerful argument that Clinton should resign as well and move beyond this mess,” he said. [Atlanta Journal and Constitution, 12/20/98]


    Since this is David Vitter’s opinion on what a politician SHOULD do if he is caught being unfaithful to his spouse;

    When is he going to walk the walk of his own talk?

    ReplyDelete
  158. WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The first U.S. surgeon general appointed by President George W. Bush accused the administration on Tuesday of political interference and muzzling him on key issues like embryonic stem cell research.
    ADVERTISEMENT

    "Anything that doesn't fit into the political appointees' ideological, theological or political agenda is ignored, marginalized or simply buried," Dr. Richard Carmona, who served as the nation's top doctor from 2002 until 2006, told a House of Representatives committee.

    "The problem with this approach is that in public health, as in a democracy, there is nothing worse than ignoring science, or marginalizing the voice of science for reasons driven by changing political winds. The job of surgeon general is to be the doctor of the nation, not the doctor of a political party," Carmona added.

    Carmona said Bush administration political appointees censored his speeches and kept him from talking out publicly about certain issues, including the science on embryonic stem cell research, contraceptives and his misgivings about the administration's embrace of "abstinence-only" sex education.

    ReplyDelete
  159. ABC News has been told the White House is in "panic mode" over the recent defections of Republican senators on the president's stay-the-course policy in Iraq.

    Senior Bush administration officials are deep in discussion about how to find a compromise that will "appease Democrats and keep wobbly Republicans onboard," a senior White House official told ABC News.

    The official said the White House "is in panic mode," despite Monday's on-the-record briefing by White House Press Secretary Tony Snow, who played down any concern over the recent spate of GOP senators who have spoken out publicly in support of changing course in Iraq.

    The Republican defections are seen as "a crack in the dike," according to the senior White House official, and National Security Adviser Steven Hadley is most concerned.

    I find this story hard to believe since Bush could care less what anyone thinks.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Well said, Worf.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Voltron said...
    What if they vote in a whole bunch of Conservatives who can ACTUALLY and effectively get the job done?


    The self-referential ironies in this comment are thick as flies on shit.

    A state you should be familiar with, Widdle Twucker.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Voltron said...
    See, a lot (if not all) of your liberal organizations can trace their origins back to socialist or communist front groups. And you guys eat up their pablum at the expense of your country.


    Ya mean like Prescott Bush was a Nazi sympathizer?

    BEEG SHMILE, HERR TWUCKER! BEEG SHMILE!

    ReplyDelete
  163. Voltron said...
    Well while you're all "thinking", here's a few things to ponder about liberalism...


    "Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did Conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things...every one! So when you try to hurl that label at my feet, 'Liberal,' as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won't work, Senator, because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor."

    Now shut up and sit down, bitch...

    ReplyDelete
  164. Volt -- so you're saying Jesus Christ was a communist?

    ReplyDelete
  165. Shut up Moo Moo you pathetic IDIOT..............before I shut you up!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  166. A nationwide CBS News poll conducted late last month found that 63 percent of those polled said America should set a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq.

    Two-thirds believe America should remove all or some of its troops, and 76 percent say the additional 20,000 U.S. troops sent to Iraq have either made no difference or made things worse.

    I forgot, Bush doesn't care about what the people of America think!

    ReplyDelete
  167. Here is a chart featuring the all-time worst Gallup poll results for every president over the past 70 years:
    President Low Approval High Disapproval High Margin
    Bush 2 29 66 -37
    Clinton 36 50 -14
    Bush 1 29 60 -31
    Reagan 35 56 -21
    Carter 28 59 -31
    Ford 39 45 -6
    Nixon 24 66 -42
    Johnson 35 52 -16
    Kennedy 56 30 +26
    Eisenhower 48 36 +12
    Truman 22 65 -43
    FDR 48 43 +5


    Looks like Bush won a big victory here.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Gonzales was told of FBI violations
    After getting report, attorney general said he knew of no wrongdoing

    By John Solomon

    Updated: 5:08 a.m. MT July 10, 2007
    As he sought to renew the USA Patriot Act two years ago, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales assured lawmakers that the FBI had not abused its potent new terrorism-fighting powers. "There has not been one verified case of civil liberties abuse," Gonzales told senators on April 27, 2005.

    Six days earlier, the FBI sent Gonzales a copy of a report that said its agents had obtained personal information that they were not entitled to have. It was one of at least half a dozen reports of legal or procedural violations that Gonzales received in the three months before he made his statement to the Senate intelligence committee, according to internal FBI documents released under the Freedom of Information Act.

    The acts recounted in the FBI reports included unauthorized surveillance, an illegal property search and a case in which an Internet firm improperly turned over a compact disc with data that the FBI was not entitled to collect, the documents show. Gonzales was copied on each report that said administrative rules or laws protecting civil liberties and privacy had been violated.

    The reports also alerted Gonzales in 2005 to problems with the FBI's use of an anti-terrorism tool known as national security letters (NSLs), well before the Justice Department's inspector general brought widespread abuse of the letters in 2004 and 2005 to light in a stinging report this past March.

    ‘In the context’ of inspector general reports
    Justice officials said they could not immediately determine whether Gonzales read any of the FBI reports in 2005 and 2006 because the officials who processed them were not available yesterday. But department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said that when Gonzales testified, he was speaking "in the context" of reports by the department's inspector general before this year that found no misconduct or specific civil liberties abuses related to the Patriot Act.

    Each of the violations cited in the reports copied to Gonzales was serious enough to require notification of the President's Intelligence Oversight Board, which helps police the government's surveillance activities. The format of each memo was similar, and none minced words.

    "This enclosure sets forth details of investigative activity which the FBI has determined was conducted contrary to the attorney general's guidelines for FBI National Security Investigations and Foreign Intelligence Collection and/or laws, executive orders and presidential directives," said the April 21, 2005, letter to the Intelligence Oversight Board.

    The oversight board, staffed with intelligence experts from inside and outside government, was established to report to the attorney general and president about civil liberties abuses or intelligence lapses. But Roehrkasse said the fact that a violation is reported to the board "does not mean that a USA Patriot violation exists or that an individual's civil liberties have been abused."

    Two of the earliest reports sent to Gonzales, during his first month on the job, in February 2005, involved the FBI's surveillance and search powers. In one case, the bureau reported a violation involving an "unconsented physical search" in a counterintelligence case. The details were redacted in the released memo, but it cited violations of safeguards "that shall protect constitutional and other legal rights." The second violation involved electronic surveillance on phone lines that was reinitiated after the expiration deadline set by a court in a counterterrorism case.

    The report sent to Gonzales on April 21, 2005, concerned a violation of the rules governing NSLs, which allow agents in counterterrorism and counterintelligence investigations to secretly gather Americans' phone, bank and Internet records without a court order or a grand jury subpoena. In the report -- also heavily redacted before being released -- the FBI said its agents had received a compact disc containing information they did not request. It was viewed before being sealed in an envelope.

    Gonzales received another report of an NSL-related violation a few weeks later. "A national security letter . . . contained an incorrect phone number" that resulted in agents collecting phone information that "belonged to a different U.S. person" than the suspect under investigation, stated a letter copied to the attorney general on May 6, 2005.

    At least two other reports of NSL-related violations were sent to Gonzales, according to the new documents. In letters copied to him on Dec. 11, 2006, and Feb. 26, 2007, the FBI reported to the oversight board that agents had requested and obtained phone data on the wrong people.

    ‘I was upset...’
    Nonetheless, Gonzales reacted with surprise when the Justice Department inspector general reported this March that there were pervasive problems with the FBI's handling of NSLs and another investigative tool known as exigent circumstances letters.

    "I was upset when I learned this, as was Director Mueller. To say that I am concerned about what has been revealed in this report would be an enormous understatement," Gonzales said in a speech March 9, referring to FBI Director Robert S. Mueller. The attorney general added that he believed back in 2005, before the Patriot Act was renewed, that there were no problems with NSLs. "I've come to learn that I was wrong," he said, making no mention of the FBI reports sent to him.

    Marcia Hofmann, a lawyer for the nonpartisan Electronic Frontier Foundation, said, "I think these documents raise some very serious questions about how much the attorney general knew about the FBI's misuse of surveillance powers and when he knew it." A lawsuit by Hofmann's group seeking internal FBI documents about NSLs prompted the release of the reports.

    Caroline Fredrickson, a lobbyist for the American Civil Liberties Union, said the new documents raise questions about whether Gonzales misled Congress at a moment when lawmakers were poised to renew the Patriot Act and keenly sought assurances that there were no abuses. "It was extremely important," she said of Gonzales's 2005 testimony. "The attorney general said there are no problems with the Patriot Act, and there was no counterevidence at the time."

    Some of the reports describe rules violations that the FBI decided not to report to the intelligence board. In February 2006, for example, FBI officials wrote that agents sent a person's phone records, which they had obtained from a provider under a national security letter, to an outside party. The mistake was blamed on "an error in the mail handling." When the third party sent the material back, the bureau decided not to report the mistake as a violation

    ‘Overcollected’ evidence
    The memos also detail instances in which the FBI wrote out new NSLs to cover evidence that had been mistakenly collected. In a June 30, 2006, e-mail, for instance, an FBI supervisor asked an agent who had "overcollected" evidence under a national security letter to forward his original request to lawyers. "We would like to check the specific language to see if there is anything in the body that would cover the extra material they gave," the supervisor wrote.

    Sometimes the FBI reached seemingly contradictory conclusions about the gravity of its errors. On May 6, 2005, the bureau decided that it needed to report a violation when agents made an "inadvertent" request for data for the wrong phone number. But on June 1, 2006, in a similar wrong-number case, the bureau concluded that a violation did not need to be reported because the agent acted "in good faith."

    © 2007 The Washington Post Company

    ReplyDelete
  169. Glad you took care of those two Mike cause I was about to.

    ReplyDelete
  170. More lies and treason from the Bush Administration to turn our country into a fascist police state!

    Gonzalez should have been removed like a cancerous tumor MONTHS ago........the fact that he is still in power shows are broken the system is and how dysfunctional the checks and balances truly are........REAL oversite is DEAD!

    ReplyDelete
  171. Gonzales isn't even a man. He's like a little tick stuck on George Bush's ass.

    ReplyDelete
  172. WORFEUS THE SEER said...
    Poor moo moo."


    Yeah, it must suck to be that pathetic of a LOSER!

    ReplyDelete
  173. Imagine hating someone so bad because of their beliefs, that your life is consumed with harrassing their blog.

    What a pathetic loser he really is.

    ReplyDelete
  174. We don't even read his comments anymore. I see em I just delete them immediately.

    He has no voice in here, and no ones going to here him, which makes him that much more pathetic.

    ReplyDelete
  175. I'm sorry Ron, were you trying to say something?

    Your posts dissappear so fast we can't even tell what they're saying.

    Must be an anomoly.

    ReplyDelete
  176. Mike, why'd you delete that?

    I kinda liked it.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Does Moo Moo keep using sock puppet names like James Dale Guckert did during his white House escapades?

    For the same reasons even?

    ReplyDelete
  178. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

    L O O S E R!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    O

    O

    S

    E

    R
    !
    !

    ReplyDelete
  179. He's lower Clif. Only a complete loser would waste his life trying to harrass someone elses blog.

    He is the E-PIT-O-MEE of a complete loser.

    ReplyDelete
  180. there its back!

    ReplyDelete
  181. I thought Ron/Mamaduke/Moo Moo was a tough debater.

    ReplyDelete
  182. There are types of people in the world Clif.

    Those who live and let live, and those whose lives are dedicated to trying to make others as miserable as themselves.

    He obviously falls into the latter catagory.

    ReplyDelete
  183. Mike said...
    there its back!


    Thanks.

    I really liked that one.

    So artistic.

    ReplyDelete
  184. Did any of you see the Video on Checks blog............ponder this, WHY would Dick Cheney order no fighter jets to shoot down the last plane and Why would it circle around the Pentagon and strike the OTHER side to avoid Rumsfelds office?

    ReplyDelete
  185. I don't know Mike, but something stinks about 911, and no ones going to rest until all the answers are revealed.

    ReplyDelete
  186. God there is SO MANY reasons to impeach Dick Cheney for treason and incompetence that i'd be hard pressed to pick ONLY one!

    ReplyDelete
  187. I love the fact we can delete his comments so easily.

    I don't even have to read one line of them, I just see his name, and click the little trashcan, and walla.

    Trash disposed of.

    :D

    ReplyDelete
  188. Just taking out the trash.

    ReplyDelete
  189. Where did Ron/Marmaduke/Moo Moo go?

    ReplyDelete
  190. To the landfill Larry.

    Straight to the landfill.

    ReplyDelete
  191. Right where the piece of garbage belongs.

    ReplyDelete
  192. I was wondering Worf he was calling everyone on this blog some mighty bad things.

    ReplyDelete